Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>In your attempt to blast Disney's management, your logic escapes me here. Why would they be bothered to do a safety inspection if they didn't care about safety?<< Maybe I didn't make myself clear... but what I meant is... they DO bother with monorail safety, and maybe a bit too much, which gives me reason to believe the monorail fleet is not safe and needs constant attention, just like a bad child that doesn't know how to behave in public. >>TDLFAN and the Spirit know EVERYTHING.<< Why thanks for noticing. >>Show me any form of public transportation that doesn't get delayed as some point in time and I will show you a transportation system somewhere in dreamland.<< Go to Japan. The only times I have been delayed on japanese trains have been because a) someone decided to commit suicide by jumping on the tracks, which has caused delays down the line, or 2) strong earthquakes. 99.9% of the time I have traveled on japanese trains on published times and have never been delayed more than a minute under normal circumstances. On the other hand... everytime I use the monorails at WDW, I am waiting for delays and traffic clearance a good (estimated) 65% of the times I ride. Today, the hot conditions inside this particular monorail made it a bit unbearable for every one there. I was not the only one asking what the heck was going on out loud! So what's good and OK for you, it's not OK for me... maybe because I know better from getting constant superb rail services abroad. WDW gets a big fat C- for their efforts.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<the only true comparison is with other Disney resort locales.>> There are two issues; related, but not the same. One, is it worth it to the customer, which is where 57 is coming from. Two, is it worth it relative to other Disney resorts. Both are still subjective though. Throw all the facts you want to prove or disprove either, and you still won't have a definitive answer.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN In my case, I throw the facts of my experiences for all of you to know how underappreciated you are as guests (even though the illusion that you are is well executed by management), yet none of you seem to understand my gripes and attack me when you don't get me, which forces me to do the same. Either way, you people get the short end of the stick from Disney.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 ^^^ TDLFAN, I honestly don't know how to reconcile this one. I sincerely lament the decline in quality of WDW that you feel and report. Truly. I am so sorry for you. On the other hand, whenever someone I know returns from a trip to WDW, I grill them about their experience. After hearing all their happy-happy stories, I ask them point-blank: "Okay, now tell me what disappointed you. What was not magical? What went wrong? What wasn't as good as you expected it to be?" Typically, they look at me blankly. But, wanting to please me, they'll try to think of unhappy events. Then they'll come up with something like, "Well, I forgot to bring the kids' sunscreen to the water park." Or, "We had to leave before the fireworks." And then I TOTALLY prompt them... "Was the place clean?" "Did you have any experiences in which an employee was rude?" "Did you have difficulty communicating with anyone who worked there?" "Did you have problems with your hotel reservations?" "Was the transportation a hassle?" And they say, "Uhhh... No. It was great. They're great there. Why are you asking? Don't you like Disney? I thought you loved Disneyland." I'm so sorry that you're hurt by the decline in standards that you notice. But please understand that Joe Tourist doesn't notice it.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN Excuse me but I understand that. Have I not been saying all along that change from the top won't happen because your average guests are happy (albeit because they donot know how good the other Disney resorts are? Especially TDR??) You are not telling me anything I don't already know. That is the cross I bear... As for you! STOP procrastinating and come down to visit WDW with me.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<But, again, I see those as choices. Not comparisons. Disney always had no comparison. It was unique. It was Disney. When you invite such comparisons, you simply marginalize the Disney magic (not the boat). So, while I understand your point, I'm not sure you get mine.>> With all respect, uh... no, I really don't understand your point. The question here is "Is a day at WDW worth $67?" Choices ARE comparisons. "Which is going to be a better value for me for tomorrow: Universal for $XX or WDW for $YY?" <<WDW should be something without peer, not just another brand. Hence again, the only true comparison is with other Disney resort locales.>> Okay, now I get you. You're re-defining the question. You're only interested in: "Is the single-day gate price of WDW justified in comparison to the gate price of DL and TDL and Paris and Hong Kong?" That's a very different question. And one that's completely irrelevant to the average tourist who's contemplating whether or not to include WDW on his/her vacation itinerary.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Go to Japan. The only times I have been delayed on japanese trains have been because a) someone decided to commit suicide by jumping on the tracks, which has caused delays down the line, or 2) strong earthquakes. 99.9% of the time I have traveled on japanese trains on published times and have never been delayed more than a minute under normal circumstances. On the other hand... everytime I use the monorails at WDW, I am waiting for delays and traffic clearance a good (estimated) 65% of the times I ride. Today, the hot conditions inside this particular monorail made it a bit unbearable for every one there. I was not the only one asking what the heck was going on out loud! >>> That just about sums it up. To see Japanese trains work is quite amazing, considering how many of them there are, the density of rolling stock to track and just how closely they run to schedule, and the number of people involved. Come to think of it, and earthquake and a suicide are the only two times I've been delayed myself. <<< Show me any form of public transportation that doesn't get delayed as some point in time and I will show you a transportation system somewhere in dreamland. >>> See above. Delays are so unusual on trains in Japan that in the event of say, a suicide, you can get a note from the station staff to vouch for the situation as otherwise your boss may simply not believe "the train was late." Compare this to the situation TDRFAN reports of being delayed on the WDW monorail about 2/3s of the time. Whether it's staff levels, training, maintenance or whatever, there's something that's amiss at WDW that's causing trains to be so routinely delayed. And it's not as if the solutions to the problems are unknown. A WDC licensee operates such a system at a Disney resort in plain sight for anyone at WDC to look at if they wanted to. And this isn't an unfair comparison, as I know that TDLFAN as well as myself are making direct comparisons with the Resort Line at TDR, which has a lot in common with the WDW system: four stations in a loop, operating at a Disney resort and transporting resort guests. Except that it runs on time, all the time, without having to "wait for traffic clearance." It runs on a set schedule, with each departure from each station happening on time. They operate 1, 2, or 3 trains on the beam at one time depending on the time of day, but there aren't delays when they add or remove a train from the barn onto the main line, or for unscheduled maintenance checks. I'm certain that when a gauge indicates a safety problem with one of the trains on the TDR line, it is not operated until the safety issue is resolved. But the point is that since it's properly maintained, these issues almost never happen when a train set is in passenger service. Parts that need to be adjusted or replaced from time to time are done at intervals according to the mainenance schedule BEFORE they become a safety issue, and are not left in place with a "run until failure" mentality. And by "run until failure" I don't mean to imply that things are let to run at WDW until safety is compromised, but they get themselves into situations where things must be stopped during the day in order to not create a safety problem, when these unscheduled interruptions could be avoided if proper attention and resources were invested into maintenance. <<< These are machines, what was fine an hour ago can be on the verge of disaster now. No amount of safety inspections would be a problem for me. ... that mentality helps make me safe, I am all for it.>>> How about a 15-minute safety inspection after every 5 minutes of operation - would that make it super-safe? The point isn't that WDW should ignore safety and continue to operate the monorail when safety is in question, but that a properly designed and maintained transit system does not need to be taken out of service on an unscheduled basis for safety inspections except in the rarest of situations. I don't question the dedication to safety with the monorails at WDW, but I do think that they sacrafice maintenance required to operate a safe AND reliable transport system.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Throw all the facts you want to prove or disprove either, and you still won't have a definitive answer.>> I wasn't looking for a definitive answer because there isn't one. I wasn't asking if the world was flat or even if WDW was as well managed and maintained now as it was 20 years ago. I put a simple question out there in light of the cost of a ticket rising yet again. Besides, I'm doing my Disney 'pals' a favor by giving them free market research.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<TDLFAN, I honestly don't know how to reconcile this one. I sincerely lament the decline in quality of WDW that you feel and report. Truly. I am so sorry for you.>> I don't know the history behind the two of you, so I can only take that statement at face value ... and at that level it sounds condescending and like the problem is WDW's declining standards, rather that TDLFAN notices them. And they're there. Have you been to WDW? If so how many times? When was your first time, last time, frequency of visits etc ...? Because all of that adds up to perspective. I know TDLFAN has a very unique one here because he is a regular at EVERY Disney Resort on Earth. And, myself, as an APer at WDW, DL and DLP have decades of visits. It's hard to notice how far things have fallen if your first visit was in 2002. Or 2004 ... or 1997 etc ... <<I'm so sorry that you're hurt by the decline in standards that you notice. But please understand that Joe Tourist doesn't notice it.>> That's only true to a point. I've often said things when I notice something dirty or falling apart within earshot of others and you'd be surprised at how many of those 'dumb' tourists will say something along the line of 'yes, I didn't expect it to be like that ... or if you think that's bad check out the restroom in Fantasyland.' But whether people notice shouldn't be the point, should it? If people don't notice the walkways are filthy or coated in bird feces, that's OK with you? Sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head up against a wall and understand why my year and a half away from LP.com did me good. I can understand why a WDW newbie might think the place is near perfect. I might as well, although I doubt it (using my first visit to DL and DLP for comparison). But it's changed in so many fundamental ways that you can only truly understand if you were a regular in the 70s, 80s, 90s and today. So many basic principles of Walt Disney and his successors have been compromised or destroyed in the zeal for a quick buck. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at why so many people are quick to jump to Disney's defense with the mood in our country right now. We'll make excuses for just about anyone or anything. ... well, I won't.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<With all respect, uh... no, I really don't understand your point. The question here is "Is a day at WDW worth $67?">> I started the thread. I'm well aware of what it says. I also said I don't have a strong opinion either way. MY point was simply that WDW's product has been watered down and marginalized so much over the past decade that people believe it IS fair to compare the value of WDW to a sporting event, concert or night at the movies. That's very sad. <<Choices ARE comparisons. "Which is going to be a better value for me for tomorrow: Universal for $XX or WDW for $YY?">> I disagree, but I'm not getting into a semantics debate and have that take away from the points I've made.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I must say that I was surprised to see the announcement of the price increase (the second increase this year). Do I understand it? Yes. Do I like it? No. But, here is an interesting example of trying to increase revenue by Cedar Point in Ohio. This year they LOWERED their adult ticke prices by $5 to $39.95 and their under 48" ticket by $15 to $9.95. In addition, they also scaled back food prices including selling cotton candy for .25 cents. Why did they do this? Well, they recognized that the family visitors were shrinking during what is still a bad economy in Ohio. This was an attempt to reach out to families and make it easier on them to come to the park, ultimately increasing revenue with higher attendance. It remains to be seen if it will prove successful. The first couple of months of the season had some very poor weather in Ohio but their big money comes mid-July through September. Lowering prices....there's an idea.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Once again, I'm forced to say...incredible, just incredible. I think we should all move to Japan because they obviously do everything better than us. They can make machinery that never breaks down, the can do theme parks that are second only to heaven and on top of that they have great sushi. Since I am in the transportation business I will stick with my previous statement. I may be out of touch with the down side of Disney but I do know transportation and it's issues. I have never been on a monorail at Disney that was delayed over 2 minutes. You have never been on a Train in Japan that had a problem other than suicide (somewhat reveling) or earthquake. On the surface that doesn't mean much since we cannot be on every train or monorail that ever ran. I have never been on an airplane that crashed, that doesn't mean that they don't from time to time. Whenever I have been on a monorail "awaiting clearance" my first thought has always been, the tourist are walking along without a care in the world and holding the monorail up while the saunter up with strollers, balloons the size of the ones in Macy's parade and generally exhibiting the usual entitlement that today's population has come to embrace. When you think about it, unless some danger light was flashing and it had to be checked out to see if it was just a malfunctioning signal or a real problem it isn't necessary to do random checks on everything. Since none of you have the inside information as to why a train is taken off line, it might be better to speculate on something else, like, Is it worth $67.00 per day. First of all very few of us pay that rate so why even talk about it. I just bought tickets that amounted to around $44.00 per day! When the cost starts to exceed what I get from the experience I will stop going. When people stop going prices will fall. Simple economics! Supply and Demand really does work. Until then there is not much we can do about it except to grin and bear it.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost And TDLFAN, you of all people. Considering the number of times you go to WDW on your AP, it must be about 25 cents a visit for you. Pretty good deal.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Heck Six Flags near us is $54.99 -- ( the gang activity however is free with admission )<< I think your tag is very false. I visit SFMM and SFGAM as well as many other non-Disney theme parks and SFGAM is really head and shoulders above the rest - especially SFMM. I've been to SFGAM twice this year and have seen more families than ever. SF is a sick corporation and SFGAM over the last few weeks has had to plan some cuts here and there, but it still is one of the best non-Disney parks in the country when it comes to operations, cleanliness, and ride offerings. Far from any gang hangout. If anything SFGAM's price increases has cut down on teenagers with season passes and some other riff raff. I don't know your history or even bad experiences at SFGAM, vbdad, but I am a picky park go'er and I do find faults with how SFGAM is ran compared to 20 years ago but it is far from gang activity central.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>When I posed the question, I didn't offer an opinion as to whether or not I thought WDW was worth $67 a day or not. I could -- quite easily as a matter of fact -- argue that a day at WDW is worth twice that. I could also argue that it's not. << I agree. I could argue it either way, but I really think this is a realistic step in the right direction. Disney should be priced as a premium product. Only that will give us a CHANCE of having better attractions and better service return to the property. I understand that the guest might not see the whole increase translate onstage, but the increase certainly improves the chance. Disney needs to take advantage of the demand for their product, there is no reason NOT to raise the price. In the future if they want more volume, they can discount.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<You have never been on a Train in Japan that had a problem other than suicide (somewhat reveling) or earthquake. On the surface that doesn't mean much since we cannot be on every train or monorail that ever ran.>> It *is* true though that Japanese trains run like clockwork. It is exceptionally rare for delays to occur. Timetables are posted on platforms, and when it says a train will be there at 2:36pm, it will be there at 2:26pm. The margin of error is measured in seconds, not minutes. One thing I do notice about their train systems: they are not handicap-friendly at all... at least not what I have seen. I have zero idea how wheelchair bound people in Tokyo manage.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Only idiots would have to make a point of the MK being justified in raising prices,<< Whoa! Hey now! j/k. Do I think MK is a better park than it was 10 years ago for cheaper admission? Heck no! But increasing gate revenues is a necessity if we want to see improvements at WDW. Who is to blame for this prediciment? Disney's own management, for letting the resort become too big and too dependent on our economy. WDW was never completely recession proof, but it's pricing and attendance used to be far less effected by negative economic sentiment than it is now.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<It *is* true though that Japanese trains run like clockwork. It is exceptionally rare for delays to occur. Timetables are posted on platforms, and when it says a train will be there at 2:36pm, it will be there at 2:26pm. The margin of error is measured in seconds, not minutes.>> As an example, in 2003, the average lateness per train on the Tokaido Shinkansen (the so-called Bullet Trains") was 12 seconds. That's all trains; there are hundreds of departures and arrivals daily.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Neighors brother is the police chief -- trust me there are issues. Maybe not as bad as a few years ago - but issues none the less... Yes, we do have a first hand experience also, while attending a fright night last year..without going into detail-- I grew up on the south side of Chicago in a not so nice area ( being kind) so I know issues when they are there.. Now maybe during a weekday - during the day might be better ( we stopped going so I don;t know about the last few years) - I'll give you that if that is your experience, but to think the latter isn't a problem just isn't true. I watched Riverview closed down and part of the reason was the 'toughness' if you will of the attendees near the end as I am sure you well know also.
