Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<My original point is that I am seeing more and more guests notice things. That some cuts are catching up to Disney. >> They are, and you can bet that's one reason why so much work is starting to get done. Do you think Disney just completed (or is completing) massive renovations at the Poly, Contemp, and WL because its execs give a rat's butt about exceeding guest expectations? More like even they know that when the tourists and bumpkins start bitching about the quality, they've got problems. <<When there is a complaint on here that we have never personally experienced should we just duck our heads in the sand and pretend it's not there so that it not tarnish our own bubble? Should we declare that only things that effect us be allowed to be complained about, everything else must be mocked with extreme unrealistic examples? Should we form a straw man arguement since we aren't willing to either respond directly or just not respond at all?>> Very good points as usual. But I've come to realize that some people have already given up on many things in life ... and getting what they paid for is just a small measure of that. You could walk an apologist around Frontierland walkways, which are coated in bird waste, and they'd say 'I don't blame Disney for not cleaning up. If they clean it now, the birds will just fly by and drop their bombs in a few hours.' If you show them paint peeling and wood rot that say "I don't even notice. Would I rather see them have Wishes or paint a wall in Adventureland?' If you show them dirty carpeting in a hallway of a resort they are paying a few hundred bucks a night to stay at they'll say 'Why are you even looking down? They can't clean it every day. Kids spill things.' If you show them a playground where an E-Ticket ride on a glistening lagoon once resided they'll say 'It was closed. At least this place gives kids a place to run off some energy.' I can make excuses all night long ... but won't. Some people just have lower standards and consider things acceptable that shouldn't be. <<You know what is easier? How about Disney rectifying a problem that a big-spending guest notices? Nah, forget that, it's certainly the guest's fault, he should pay for a limo. Now if this was a problem that we noticed, that affected our judgement & deep experience of what is acceptable or not I believe I would not have seen the problem mocked with extreme examples that nobody has suggested. It's easy to mock and take out of proportion criticms that don't affect one's bubble instead of just facing the fact that other's might have higher standards or a more experienced and well-tuned sense of what is acceptable. That me, you or any one individual has the best judgement.>> You and I definitely need to connect at WDW, Mike. Even though we don't always agree, I think we are kindred spirits on everything that truly counts ... I don't expect everyone to be bothered or even notice many things I do. But I do consider myself having reasonable standards. If that bothers people who shop at WalMart, eat at Taco Bell, buy American cars, and vote ...(OK, won't go there), I'll accept that happily!
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Even though we don't always agree,<< And in case you missed it I gave you a full mea culpa on our Contemp DVC differences.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^ I didn't miss it, thanks. Sometimes it's hard to remember everything I want to throw out there without living in the LaughingPlace, and I don't want to do that!
Originally Posted By ChiMike LoL, I know, I haven't even made it over to the DVC board. I am afraid to see what other DVC smackdowns have been laid down.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<I sincerely lament the decline in quality of WDW that you feel and report. Truly. I am so sorry for you.>> <<I don't know the history behind the two of you, so I can only take that statement at face value...>> I was being completely honest in expressing my sympathy. I am truly sorry for the disappointment and sense of loss that TDLFAN -- and you, Spirit, and others -- feel in regard to the quality of WDW. TDLFAN and I are friends; he knew I was being sincere. I'm sorry if my comment came across as sarcastic to others. <<and at that level it sounds condescending and like the problem is WDW's declining standards, rather that TDLFAN notices them.>> Well, the angst that you all feel is a result of BOTH (a) WDW's reduced standards AND (b) your very high expectations, isn't it? For the record, I have NOTHING against high expectations. I have them myself. I'm an observant, critical, detail-oriented person. I want things to be clean, sharp, and efficient. I want stories to make sense. I want manufactured vistas to be well-thought out and completely visually appealing. And when it comes to Disney... my expectations are impossibly high. I want not only to NOT experience any inconveniences or disappointments, but to actually be delighted by the fact that Disney exceeds even my expectations. Having those kinds of standards is kind of a curse, isn't it? We're bound to be more disappointed more often than are the less discriminating among us. On one hand, I wish the rest of the world were as demanding as we are. If that were the case, complaints at City Hall would skyrocket, attendance at the Parks would decline until changes were made, and then Disney would MAKE changes. (Case in point: DCA.) But I'm also envious of the less-demanding. I, personally, would like to be able to not notice some bird poop. I'd like to be able to ride a WDW attraction and not think, "The DL version of this is more polished." I'd like to not take for granted that the 17-year-old who sold me her 229th bottled water of the day in the blistering sun smiled and thanked me. I believe that, on the continuum of expectations, TDLFAN and you and I have expectations at the 95th percentile or higher. For me, it's because I'm generally critical and I've been delighted so much by the DL experience. For you and TDLFAN, it's because you remember the "glory days" of WDW. And for TDLFAN, it's also because his standard is the amazingly high level of service and product that TDR delivers. And I AM sincerely sad that TDLFAN and you and others aren't happier with your current visits to WDW. But I'm simultaneously very happy that Mr. and Mrs. Young Family and Their Kids go to WDW and are blown away by how wonderful it all is. I feel all warm and thankful that a middle-aged lesbian couple I know spend the better part of a year looking forward to their annual week-long visit to WDW and ALWAYS come back with renewed appreciation for the Parks. I love it that when one of my favorite 13-year-olds starts to relate a WDW vacation story to me, her usually reticent father interrupts and takes over telling the story more enthusiastically than Em was. My points: (1) I do lament the decline in quality at WDW, and I wish the quality would improve (as it has recently at DL). (2) I feel the pain of those who can't help but focus on that decline, and who are distracted from noticing the still high level of quality that WDW offers versus almost every other entertainment option available. (3) WDW is still an absolutely magical experience for most visitors. We shouldn't begrudge them that.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Great post, I-57. And thanks for explaining. I'll only add that I still find parts of WDW magical, most of the CMs are acceptable and many are exceptional (which amazes me with the incredibly poor way they are treated by management). Rest assured, if WDW ever got bad enough, I wouldn't go. It would be a very sad day, but I travel extensively and know what's out there. There's life beyond WDW. I just spent a little over a week in the WDW area. I had a GREAT time overall! But that doesn't mean I don't notice things. And, you're quite right, that makes me more discerning. I'm a trained observer and I well understand that many people won't see what I do. But it doesn't mean it isn't there. The one park that the quality has dropped the most is the cash cow -- the MK. And I find myself spending less and less time there as I can go to DL (I have APs to WDW, DL and DLP now too!)and get a whole lot more bang for the buck in every important way. But there's melancholy about that. The MK was the first park I visited as a child. It was the one I grew up with. I spent countless summer nights there until very late (before APs, before 1 a.m. closings became the stuff of New Year's Eve and July 4th only). I had my Grad Night there. I took many dates there. I have more memories from that park than any other. But it is a hollow shell of its former self. Yeah, it has really cool fireworks. But everything else I can enjoy elsewhere without noticing all the things that Disney should be paying attention to but is instead ignoring.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<But there's melancholy about that. The MK was the first park I visited as a child. It was the one I grew up with. I spent countless summer nights there until very late (before APs, before 1 a.m. closings became the stuff of New Year's Eve and July 4th only). I had my Grad Night there. I took many dates there. I have more memories from that park than any other. But it is a hollow shell of its former self. Yeah, it has really cool fireworks. But everything else I can enjoy elsewhere without noticing all the things that Disney should be paying attention to but is instead ignoring.>> Oh, man. What a sad post! I'm sorry. This is part of the "hard to reconcile" bit for me. I am glad that so many people still find such magic at WDW's MK. I'm glad that they'll still spend $67 plus tax to have that experience. But then where will Disney's motivation to clean up the Magic Kingdom come from? I think it might take comparing Disney to steak dinners. If Universal adds an incredible new attraction that cuts into WDW's appeal, maybe Disney will decide that their attraction roster needs updating. If guest surveys reveal that, "Wow! Everything was so easy and fun and CLEAN at SeaWorld," maybe Disney will up their custodial budget. If people tell WDW, "Yeah, this was nice, but we REALLY got service on a cruise!" the Disney management might re-evaluate service budgets. We can hope.
Originally Posted By Mr X Hey TDLFAN...if you are so (understandably) frustrated with the poor service on the monorail, why not just use the ferry instead? Just curious. I know that's what I ended up doing most of the time after a while when I had an AP in Florida (unless I was going to the resorts). I'll third that nomination for the unbelievably efficient Japanese train system. However, I must say that quakes and suicides aside, I HAVE been delayed several times due to incliment weather as well. However, that's understandable and also proves that they care very much about safety (windy conditions seem to upset the schedule even more than rain or snow, for some reason...specially on the Keiyo line which runs to Disney). I remember reading somewhere that a train employee from some other country came to Japan and asked what the average delay time for bullet trains was. When told "within 11 seconds of schedule" he refused to believe it, thinking that they had mistaken seconds for minutes! ;p
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I might add that it is really difficult to compare today with yesterday. Yesterday was when we were a little less cynical generally. Everything was new and shiny to us and we were so enamored by the creativity and detail that we didn't really take the time to notice the "bad" things. Familiarity breeds contempt! Now that we have the time to look everyplace else, and not though childlike eyes things start to get tainted. Even a beautiful flower has ugly roots. There IS a good chance that a lot of these things existed before but we were so busy absorbing the blossom that we failed to notice the roots.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<If that bothers people who shop at WalMart, eat at Taco Bell, buy American cars, and vote ...(OK, won't go there), I'll accept that happily!>> I do all of those things every once in a while (with cars… I buy American a LOT because I like people to have jobs). I wish I were as good as you. Maybe I will be someday.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<with cars… I buy American a LOT because I like people to have jobs>> Buying American cars will certainly help keep repair mechanics employed.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip By the way... I should have added a winkie top #131. I'm not trying to rip the Spirit... I just thought #130 sounded really snobbish. I also realize that buying American and shopping at Wal-Mart is perhaps an oxymoron. That is why I've really cut down on my Wal-Mart visits. I've been there once in the past 9 months. (Well that and the fact that the house we bought last October doesn't have a Wal-Mart anywhere close.) ;-)
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <(with cars… I buy American a LOT because I like people to have jobs). < pretty soon Toyota will be building more cars in the US than US companies - << Buying American cars will certainly help keep repair mechanics employed. < which is why after 30 + years and 30 cars I have stopped - now my wife has a Jeep she just keeps buying them..as forme though I am done and havebeen for a while and when i went to buy my daughter a car for college - I wanted a car that would run 100K - 150K miles easily -- I did not even look American...bought her a Corolla. Too many cars I could list where the issues just outweigh any benefits ( and I got great deals as one of my friends ( and his father ) own 7 car dealerships - all but one ( Honda) American...(Gm & Chrysler)
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<pretty soon Toyota will be building more cars in the US than US companies>> I was just going to say, I wonder what the breakdown is ... out of all the cars "made in the USA," what percentage are from GM/Ford/Chrysler?
Originally Posted By fundog58 For some of us the question is no longer "Is WDW worth $67 a day" but "Can we afford $67 even if it is worth it?" With the rising prices of gas, energy, and just about everything else, I know I’m having to weigh every non-essential spending decision, whether it be a visit to a Disney park, a dinner out or a new DVD. I think this was really bad timing on Disney’s part.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^^^^^^^ this is exactly the real question...and if gas hits $5 / gal as some are now saying with the pipe closedown - it's not only the gasoline etc., but the impact that gas price has on all other goods we buy --
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>(with cars… I buy American a LOT because I like people to have jobs). << Sorry, but it doesn't make much of a difference. Toyotas, Hondas, most common foreign cars are manufactured right here in the U.S. by U.S. labor. Might as well go with who's offering the best product for the best price. Foreign owned company or American.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>pretty soon Toyota will be building more cars in the US than US companies -<< Beat me to it.
