Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Somewhere along the line you have to admit that people like yourself and the fan bois have a considerably different outlook on what they want from WDW than you do. And it is only good sense that WDW responds to the wants and desires of its typical customer, not the 'elite few'.>> Oops... should have been... "on what they want from WDW than the typical visitor does". I'm sure you knew what I meant'
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<The average DL visitor visits much more frequently and comes from an area with a large amount of outstanding entertainment. Not so with the typical WDW visitor. If you return only once every five years you are much less likely to notice whether or not merchandise is constantly changing. And your typical visitor from Des Moines, IA (or Nixa, MO) does not have the entertainment background that the typical DL visitor has.>> So? I fail to see why they should be able to get away with stale offerings because some people don't visit often.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<So? I fail to see why they should be able to get away with stale offerings because some people don't visit often.>> Because any smart business puts its money into things the customer value. If the typical WDW visitor would rather have Disney spend money on a cheapo-dining plan than on quality entertainment, that is where WDW should logically put its money. Not that I like that any more than you do. But it is giving the average customer what they want.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper << If the typical WDW visitor would rather have Disney spend money on a cheapo-dining plan than on quality entertainment, that is where WDW should logically put its money.>> Somehow I seriously doubt this is the case. But hey, I guess I have too much faith in humanity.
Originally Posted By Mr X No, I think RT makes a good point Hokie. HOWEVER, there are certain intangibles that, while your average Joe 6-pack and his family might not notice per se (and thus not note it on one of their customer satisfaction surveys), I think do get subconsciously noticed and thus decrease overall customer satisfaction. That's where WDW does seem to fail far more than any of the other Disney resorts I've been to.
Originally Posted By Mr X One thing I've found increasingly insufferable is the transportation around the resort. So much so that I generally make it a point to have a car even if I don't necessarily "need" one. And that's something that the hotels have made much worse over time...the more hotels the worse it becomes. And because they're too cheap to go for anything better than cattle cars, er buses, it does start to feel much less magical. Now, would Joe 6-pack think to demand some more monorails, boats, and other such "Disney" options instead? Probably not, but he likely found the buses to be a bit of a drag all said and done. Sucks, too, because in the old days one of the neatest things about WDW was the zippy/whimsical/interesting modes of transportation for getting around the place!
Originally Posted By leobloom Is there a rule that we must have a new DL vs. WDW thread every week? Gee, just think how many times this subject has been rehased in different forms since the newsgroup days of the rec.arts.disney.parks in the 90s. Internet's a weird place.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<OK... I see what you mean on the 'little things' and acknowledge that it is the little things that make all the difference. But how much of that is caused by very different markets?>> Impossible to say, really. Yes, the markets are very different. And because DLR exists in the media capital of the world, while WDW exists in the outlet mall/fast food outlet capital of the world, sure it's fair to speculate the average 'local' DL guest is more worldly and discerning than the average 'local' WDW guest. BUT ... and it is a significant one ... you can go too far down this road when you stop and realize that many guests that visit DL do not reside in the Southland ... that many are from Sydney or Amarillo or Portland or Japan or Anytown New Mexico etc ... and one could fairly speculate those guests are much like typical WDW guests (just likely not morbidly obese!) <<The average DL visitor visits much more frequently and comes from an area with a large amount of outstanding entertainment. Not so with the typical WDW visitor.>> I covered this above, but if two out of three guests are 'local' at DL (roughly defined as hailing from Santa Barbara to the Mexican border, east to Palm Springs) that still leaves 1/3rd of guests on any given day. Sure, at WDW, it's typically the polar opposite on most days (but not say this past weekend at EPCOT), but there are plenty of locals (WDW's definition on this has changed quite a bit ... for a while it was essentially the entire state of FLA, while now it almost is exclusively Central Fla.) <<If you return only once every five years you are much less likely to notice whether or not merchandise is constantly changing.>> True. But sadly so much of the merchandise in 2010 doesn't look all that different from the 2005 models. <<And your typical visitor from Des Moines, IA (or Nixa, MO) does not have the entertainment background that the typical DL visitor has.>> I hear (seriously) that Des Moines has more culture than one might expect! <<Is it even a TINY bit possible that for the average WDW visitor (which face it Spirit, you are NOT) a new hotel to visit might be much more important than how many times a year the merchandise or entertainment changes?>> Nope. This is where I think TDO (and management apologists, not saying you're one) makes a big mistake. I don't see many of those type of guests visiting different resorts ... many folks have favorites and every trip they'll stay at the Poly or OKW or Dixie Landings or FW or Pop etc. I think ALL guests want new and fresh and high quality entertainment along with merchandise worth buying (see WWoHP at IOA!) Doesn't matter who they are. I think only a tiny minority (statistically not even important) decide they want to visit WDW because the BLT opened. <<If that is true, which I think it is, isn't Disney merely responding to the desires of WDW's typical visitor when it expands the hotel base? >> Well, I don't think it is true at all. And adding hotels has only led to massive discounting ... and, btw, I am sure you well know that many DVC resorts (OKW, SS, BW and DAK Villas usually) are available to non-DVC guests at 30-45% discounts now on a regular basis. That wasn't the case a decade ago. <<You and I can think that the DDP is an absolutely travesty, but it is DARNED POPULAR!>> Popularity doesn't equate with something being good or quality or meaningful. W was quite popular ...FOX News is popular ...American Idol is popular ... fast food is popular ... being against healthcare is popular. DDP is popular because it makes a bleep-load of $$$ for TDO, which has conditioned its guests to believe it is good ... of course, it's so much easier to do so when you raise price points to such absurd levels that people who want to eat on property and not drop 10K on a magical WDW vacation just sign up. Doesn't mean DDP is good or even popular really ... maybe folks look at it as the lesser of two evil (either pay full price to dine at Disney or buy it!) <<Again, Disney was looking at the desires of the typical WDW visitor.>> The typical WDW visitor doesn't even know what he/she wants. That's why Disney always gave them things they didn't know they wanted. Now, Disney bases its decisions on what the LCD is among many of its guests. Not simply talking DDP here, either. <<During our honeymoon we took a Town Car from MCO to WDW. There was absolutely nothing romantic about the thought of the endless waits involved in Magical Express transportation. Wait in line to have your ticket checked. Wait in line for your bus to come. Wait on the bus until it leaves. Wait at the resort for hours until your luggage arrives at your room. Yet once again, the service is TREMENDOUSLY popular!>> Marketing. That simple. TDO marketing magic is something to behold. And, even I enjoy DME on the rare times I opt to take the 30-minute flight up ... but it isn't nearly as convenient as folks make it out to be. <<Somewhere along the line you have to admit that people like yourself and the fan bois have a considerably different outlook on what they want from WDW than you do.>> I am not 'typical' but I also talk to enough typical guests to realize that so many people want the basics ... and Disney has forgotten them ... 'typical' guests notice dirty bathrooms ... they notice lousy overpriced food ... they notice attractions falling apart ... they notice parks closing earlier ... they notice shuttered facilities ... they may not bitch about those things here, but they notice ... and many decide to either not return or not return as often ... TDO also knows this, but believes there is a never-ending supply of new rubes out there who believe the 2010 version of WDW represents the pinnacle of what the resort has been. They're wrong. especially in this depression-like economy. <<And it is only good sense that WDW responds to the wants and desires of its typical customer, not the 'elite few'.>> Ultimately, what's good for 'the elite few', as you put it, is good for most everyone.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 That wasn't the case a decade ago. ---- the economy wasn't in the crapper 10 years ago
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>DL still has Mr Toad!! Case closed!<<< Exactly. All I have to add, really. Everyone else got to stay the fun stuff.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>the economy wasn't in the crapper 10 years ago<<< It also wasn't in the crapper 4 years ago, but our subpar Disney experience was at WDW then. What was the excuse back then? And more to the point where do they go to now?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Ok, I am going to give my perspective, and it is unlikely to be popular. IMHO the MK is the worst of it's kind in the world (ok maybe with HKDL, though I have yet to go there). And it always has been compared to DL and Paris. There were nice touches like Liberty Square and the Utilidors, but that is all I can really say in it's favour from the beginning. But the last 10 years, the gap has been widening. DL still has some edutainment, regular refurbs, lots of streetmousphere, a reasonable fantasmic, amazing pyro and seasonal events, cast of a high quality (though not as high as it used to be). And little plusses like the lights in the mickey floral that weren't expected. While the MK is still fun, it is not as clean or well maintained. Country Bears, Jungle Cruise, HM, Splash Mountain, and CoP were all in a terrible state last time we went. The hours are shorter in the main, and you would never see anything like Friday Night swing dances at the MK. And I cannot forgive the fact that Sept - Jan there are so many upcharge parties making the late nights for general admission even more crowded. Also the entertainers and dancers are better at DL as many work in the film or tv industry or wish to, whereas I have found most of the WDW versions to be substandard. And then there are the guests. Yes, reciting the stretch room or people on their cells in the park is off putting in DL, but I have had many more intellectually interesting conversations in DL than WDW. In WDW there is more of the red neck brigade that yes, I am prejudice against (lots of bad experiences in the South as a kid). Add in the critters, the flying cockroaches, the love bugs, the humidity, the irrational fear that I don't want to sit on the toilet because of my fear of snakes, the cheering of Bush in the Hall of Presidents. I actually get very angry when I am in the MK. The same does not happen in DL. Add in the fact that ALL the new additions to the MK in the last decade has been toon based, and that tips me over the edge. And the fact the same daytime parade, that let's face it was rubbish when it debuted 11 years ago is still going down the route does not help. Looking forward to DL's new parade next year. As for food, there are no good restaurants in the MK. Liberty Tree Tavern comes close, but it's no Blue Bayou or Club 33. And for counter service, it is all normal junk. I have not seen the Mexican restaurant open since our trip in 1981. And the noodle bar was shut when we were last there. The most exotic food available our last trip was probably at Columbia Harbour house. The tables were filthy, and the food was served on cardboard. Whereas places like Rancho Del Zocalo still use real plates and silverware despite being a counter service. Add in I found NOTHING I wanted to buy in the MK last trip, but our last trip to DL I bought a hand painted gold watch, some shag shirts, and loads of other unique souvenirs. DL is not perfect, and it has been dumbing down too, but there are still improvements and uniquities all the time (the latest being the refurb of the Rivers of America). Now if we were talking about WDW vs. DLR, that is a different, as Epcot, DAK, the Waterparks, Cirque du Soliel, Disneyquest and the deluxe hotels can and do take it to another level. But in 1981 we felt like we wasted our time travelling from California to Florida (Epcot had not yet opened). In 2000, we had a fantastic time, and we were on honeymoon, but Liberty Sq, Splash Mountain, and the new Tomorrowland made us happy. Fast forward to a few years ago, we spent maybe 10% of our time in the MK and it felt too much. Whereas we spent 6 days at DL (and often 4-6 days at DLP) and don't get tired of it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<>>>the economy wasn't in the crapper 10 years ago<<< It also wasn't in the crapper 4 years ago, but our subpar Disney experience was at WDW then. What was the excuse back then? And more to the point where do they go to now?>> Actually, the economy has been in the crapper since 2000. The Bushies hid it well because industry kept employment high even though they were paying less in real wages. But REAL INCOME in the U.S. has declined constantly since the year 2000. So as with just about everything else, the decline of WDW is all Bush's fault!
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>While the MK is still fun, it is not as clean or well maintained. Country Bears, Jungle Cruise, HM, Splash Mountain, and CoP were all in a terrible state last time we went.<<< CBJ, HM, SM, and even CoP look WAY better than they did a few years back. However, all need work, save for the HM. But things have been improving for them.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Well there was so much wrong last time, and no enough green shoots to read about, that I am not sure if and when I will give it another try. We do have East Coast friends we would like to see again, as well as wanting to take the kids to KSC, WWOHP and Discovery Cove, so if in the area, I am sure we will, but so far, indicators are not great.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But in 1981 we felt like we wasted our time travelling from California to Florida (Epcot had not yet opened)*** While this is a fair statement comparing park by park, you have to admit that WDW, even when it first opened, was far more of a resort destination than Disneyland ever was. I believe that within the first couple of years you had the Contemporary and Poly online, as well as the Golf Resort and Disney Village, watercraft and other such diversions, Fort Wilderness all coupled with "the blessing of space" to make it a grand destination... EPCOT sealed the deal in 1982. As far as Dave and EPCOT explorer talking about which attractions and/or overall quality are better or worse now or a few years ago, all I can pin my hopes on is that things can change very quickly when the management is motivated to do so. One only needs to recall the sad state of neglect of Disneyland a few years prior to the 50th (which I experienced firsthand..a THOROUGHLY disappointing visit!), in contrast to just before and during the 50th celebration itself (which I was also happy to experience, thrilled really). It DID take a change in management and philosophy to pull off, but it's far from difficult if they want to do it. I'm hoping for a similar shift in attitude from the WDW folks like, NOW!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo But X - back then we had the Pacific Ocean and the Sierra Nevada Mountains on our door step, all not too far away from DL. The other parts of WDW were pointless to us.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo But yes, the management needs to change - starting with Ogre, sorry, I meant Iger, a looserulo, oops did it ago Rasulo. Problem is, not many people within get it, not even Jobs and Lasseter - I was so hopeful when they came on board.
