Originally Posted By Mr X ***I think the "sprawl" is important in that you don't feel boxed in by the crowd. I'd love to know how many guests and cast members are on property on a given day. During peak season I'd have to guess it is 200,000 or more. That is a pretty large City but when you are moving around the property it doesn't seem claustrophobic*** Sorry Wahoo, but I'm going to have to disagree with you BIGTIME on this one. I've experienced heavy crowds many times in Florida and Tokyo, and I have to tell you that the "sprawl" in Florida is no advantage whatsoever (can't speak for Anaheim, I've only experienced what I would deem "moderately crowded" there, so I can't say how they handle their hordes). In Florida, the pathetic and inadequate transportation systems, along with sub-par guest control, leads to HUGE bottlenecks when it comes to getting people OUT of the place (and in, for that matter). In Tokyo, while famous for its crowds, you only experience that when you line up for something. If you don't want to, they provide ample room to move in and out, and the transportation systems are DESIGNED (from the beginning) to move huge masses of people. Not so in WDW...and then there's the traffic! Yikes! So, I don't really see your point as far as crowds are concerned. A crowded day at Tokyo Disneyland means you can't see the show you'd like to (or, you have to line up for 2 hours for your preferred attraction)...BUT if you decide to leave the park, or even just stroll around, it's MUCH more organized (and keep in mind your 200,000 figure is pretty close to what Tokyo Disney Resort gets on a crowded day, with about 1/50th or so the space WDW has!), and you can get around relatively easily thanks to the highly developed transportation system and the cast members who organize those gigantic crowds into manageable groups. I've been frustrated and flummoxed just trying to DEPART the Magic Kingdom on heavy traffic days, many times. Not so at TDL.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Also the entertainers and dancers are better at DL as many work in the film or tv industry or wish to, whereas I have found most of the WDW versions to be substandard ---- short of paying the type of money they could not afford for that level- don't you think this is primarily because the talent pool in Orlando is not going to be even close to that in LA-- forget sheer numbers- different regional culture..one is show biz- the other, well is not what solution would you propose for this ?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 As for food, there are no good restaurants in the MK. Liberty Tree Tavern comes close, but it's no Blue Bayou or Club 33 --- can you relly count Club 33 as 99% of guests will never eat there, and not due to costs. I really like it also- but lucky enough to know a member
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Add in I found NOTHING I wanted to buy in the MK last trip, but our last trip to DL I bought a hand painted gold watch, some shag shirts, and loads of other unique souvenirs. -------------------- this pne I couldn;t agree with you more- in fact I am hoping the cross park branding ends up raising the quality of simple things like t shirts and polo's at WDW- as they obviosuly use different buyers- DL has always been superior here and lots more collectible lines. Again as in the other thread I have to wonder ( and I don't like it) it each park isn't catering to the demands of their average guest ?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<>>>the economy wasn't in the crapper 10 years ago<<< It also wasn't in the crapper 4 years ago, but our subpar Disney experience was at WDW then. What was the excuse back then? And more to the point where do they go to now?>> ---- In case you haven't noticed the median income in the country is dropping - significantly - and some people are going NOWHERE now. Can you really ask that question with a straight face ? case in point- I live ina very well to do area in the western subrubs of Chicago. The median income 10 years ago was $124K..which doesn't seem like a lot but for a median income it is pretty high-- news here last week outr area median uncome now only $98K-- and this in an area of very very high cost of living. Where the hell do you think those people are going with that kind of cut - and taxes going up every year and health care- and a runaway spending White House ? Let's not play dumb here- many people who were taking vacations are not today - in fact a whole lot of people who took vacations 10 years ago are unemployed today. The 10% unempployment rate if the government was honest and included the % who have stopped looking is closer to 16%-18% - and if you now include the underemployed who left six figure jobs for jobs in the service industry just to make the rent/mortgage it is well over 20%. Solet's not play coy here about where they are going- they're staying home, if Bank of America hasn't repo'd it yet
Originally Posted By vbdad55 >>As far as Dave and EPCOT explorer talking about which attractions and/or overall quality are better or worse now or a few years ago, all I can pin my hopes on is that things can change very quickly when the management is motivated to do so. One only needs to recall the sad state of neglect of Disneyland a few years prior to the 50th (which I experienced firsthand..a THOROUGHLY disappointing visit!), in contrast to just before and during the 50th celebration itself (which I was also happy to experience, thrilled really). It DID take a change in management and philosophy to pull off, but it's far from difficult if they want to do it.<< Bingo Mr X-- couldn;t agree with you more ( need to join the DVC- root of all evil thread) Anytime the management team there decides they want to reverse the trend of neglect at WDW- like they did at DL ( I too went about 3 years prior to the 50th- it was sadder thanMK today) - they can ! It has nothing to do with DVC being built - in fact bottom line wise that cash flow shgould help the company borrow themoney it needs at lower rates with better PE ratios etc. The fact that they seem unwilling or uncaring is a separate issue from anything else. How we motivate them to do so is the $64M question.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I think it does depend on what you grew up with. To me, the whole lagoon set up is kind of cool at WDW but I hate that it takes forever to get anywhere around the resort (being used to driving up to the gate of DL). --------------- not so sure- I grew up on DL -- literally as I attended ( but remember zero of course) in Sept 1955 the first time and other visits during my formative years- as well as stopped by onhoneymoon in 1978. DL will always have a special place in my heart- but I also loved the national parks. I have no issue with it taking some time to get places at WDW_ hell I'm on vacation,not rushing to work. I enjoy the leasurely pace and the ability to immerse in a world shut out from the outside as much as one can expect..which is why I don;t go off site often when there- until it's time to head to Vero. I enjoy Vero for the same reason- it's slower paced than many other resorts. part of what turns me off about DL these days is hopping of the freeway to drive up to the park- for me that is a reverse reaction that it is for you.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Even at peak times the crowds have not bothered me but perhaps that is because I am so familiar with the place that I avoid the bottlenecks subconsciously. I'll say this...if people get their wish and the monorail system is expanded you can wave goodbye to in berm improvements for years. That is going to be a costly undertaking...if they ever choose to bite that off.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<I'll say this...if people get their wish and the monorail system is expanded you can wave goodbye to in berm improvements for years. That is going to be a costly undertaking...if they ever choose to bite that off.>> I'll never understand why people wish for a monorail extension. It's the one fanboi dream I've never come close to agreeing with. The monorail is nice, but it's not the most effective means of transportation what so ever.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>It also wasn't in the crapper 4 years ago, but our subpar Disney experience was at WDW then. What was the excuse back then? And more to the point where do they go to now?>><<< Oops, sorry if this was not clear. What I meant was that if they were cutting costs and quality before the economy was in the toilet, and therefore really didn't need to do it, what are Disney going to cut now that not as many people are travelling?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo The question is why is DL perceived by many to be better than the MK, entertainment is a big factor. But just like Disney paid the money to ship talent like Mr X out to Tokyo, they could similar to WDW, or have cast members work in rotation around the resorts (great experience opportunities)
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^ a rotation might work- but how many 'aspiring actors' will want to leave LA for Orlando ? Sheer volume of workforce is a negative WDW has to deal with the others do not- as they do not approach a workforce that size.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I have heard the number of Florida cast members is in the neighborhood of 50-60 thousand. I have a hard time getting my head around that.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^ I can tell you it is from a corporate seminar I attended a few years back of services/part time workforces and their impacts on companies like Disney & Walgreesn , and turnover rates of well over 100% in this workforce. At one time Walgreeens had a turnover rate of over 300%
Originally Posted By wahooskipper They do hire a significant number of staff through the College Program and the International Exchange Program. Temporary work, to be sure, but at least they come in "fresh" periodically instead of being burned out.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>As far as Dave and EPCOT explorer talking about which attractions and/or overall quality are better or worse now or a few years ago, all I can pin my hopes on is that things can change very quickly when the management is motivated to do so. One only needs to recall the sad state of neglect of Disneyland a few years prior to the 50th (which I experienced firsthand..a THOROUGHLY disappointing visit!), in contrast to just before and during the 50th celebration itself (which I was also happy to experience, thrilled really).<<< I think our 40th is a reason for all the work, going on now, for example....
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Plus there was no Epcot.<<< Agreed. In terms of originality, and not quality, WDW has Disneyland in it's pocket. And of course, I mean that by comparing DL to MK as if they opened at the same time. ;-) (The creation of DL is creativity at it's best- originality, too. )
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I always loved the intimate feel of DL, whereas the MK always felt wrong to me, especially the military style castle. DLP once again got the balance spot on.<<< It's supposed to be, though. MK's IS a fortress, and IS supposed to be imposing. And DL's fits it's park, too. I love the charm it has as well. You can't just take a castle by itself and analyze it. You have to consider the surroundings. DLP is organic and fits it's park. MK is imposing, grand, and makes a visual statement for the park, and resort, and even company. DL has the original, the charm, the grace, the elegance of being quietly there. All work well in their parks, as they should be evaluated as so.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I love the castle. Seems so sweeping and grand compared to DL's squat, unimpressive one. Not to mention they copied the Florida version in Tokyo (yay!), and Hong Kong got stuck with the cheap West Coast version (lame!). I would agree with you that the France version is a nice hybrid of the two (even though I haven't seen it myself). While I appreciate the fact that Tokyo was a copy (they had no clue whether the place would be a success or not...they did their best to copy "the best of" both American resorts all around the place), I am SO disappointed in the Hong Kong cop-out. How cool would a NEW castle design have been!? (aka Paris...an excellent and ORIGINAL Disney masterpiece). But the Disneyland Castle will always be short and rather unimpressive in my eyes. MMMM Don't agree about not liking DL...but... I do agree on most of your points ESPECIALLY the ones on ORIGINAL castles. It's a travesty, honestly, that TDL and HKDL have clones of the American Castles. Dumbs down their resort, and cheapens ours. I am NOT a fan of that. At all.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Now YOU'RE stretching just as much as RoadTrip was trying to claim that having the Haunted Mansion "open" all year long in Orlando was somehow a PLUS compared to the Mansion that was "closed for overlay" in California for several weeks every year.<<< All depends on if you like the overlay. I can't stand NBC...would not want my HM closed for it at all.
