Originally Posted By cmpaley >> <<It becomes a "let's use force to get these verminous, sub-human scum out of our pristine country and ALL our problems will be solved forever and our country will become an eternal utopia" thing. It's a lie. It's not based on human nature.>> Ill have to reread what I said. I dont realize I said that. I thought I said keep out the people that dont have permission to live here with force.<< I never said that it was you. It's the general tone of the discussion WHENEVER Mexico or immigration is brought up. It's disgusting. >>Your plan would be like, people coming into your apartment and setting up shop. Using your internet, electricity, water and gas and when you ask them to leave they dont so you send out smoke signals to the cops who wont respond for years. If that is the case, can I move in? My rent is getting expensive.<< REAL-ly? I haven't given any ANY plan at all. What I did say is there is a proposal in the Senate that will reform immigration AND enhance border security on BOTH borders.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut you have fought against removing illegal immagrants in other threads. Also, my plan doesnt just include mexicans, it includes anyone of any nationality at the present day that does not have permission to be here. Including our friends to the north.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>you have fought against removing illegal immagrants in other threads.<< To a certain extent because it would be impossible to do so without turning this country into a complete police state where not only illegal immigrants are removed but permanent resident immigrants and CITIZENS who appear to be illegal immigrants (which HAS happened in the past) and the rights of EVERYONE trampled on. Instead, I would support a plan that incentivizes those here illegally to come forward through a program that normalizes their status (so we know who is here and how many) but doesn't give them a cut in line for permanent residency and eventual citizenship. >>Also, my plan doesnt just include mexicans, it includes anyone of any nationality at the present day that does not have permission to be here. Including our friends to the north.<< Your plan still denies human nature and will only make more enemies. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar. I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion on this because it always devolves into a simplistic argument that cannot be won because the insurmountable obstacle of anger and fear on the anti-immigrant side of the argument.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.> Could you let President Bush know that, cmpaley?
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "because the insurmountable obstacle of anger and fear on the anti-immigrant side of the argument." Cuts both ways.
Originally Posted By bboisvert RE 25, I think the preferred way to communicate with the government these days is to just do a on google "Honey" and "Vinegar". Better yet, call someone overseas and say,"You get more flies with honey than with vinegar." ;-)
Originally Posted By cmpaley >><You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.> Could you let President Bush know that, cmpaley?<< He doesn't listen to anyone who disagrees with him. He's a vinegar kinda guy.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder I really believe Bush refuses to listen to opposing views because he's afraid he'll hear something that will make him change his mind and/or admit he's wrong, and like much of his dyed in the wool faithful supporters on this site he refuses to do any such thing. It's a sign of weakness with him, not rationality. Can anyone come up with someone in his current Adminstration who is known for the occasional contrary view? The only one I can think of is Colin Powell, and he was shown the door.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>"because the insurmountable obstacle of anger and fear on the anti-immigrant side of the argument." Cuts both ways.<< I don't see how. More often than not, people on the anti-immigrant side (and I know there's a 'distinction' that comes up when the term "anti-immigrant" is used, but the fact is, if you asked most people who kvetch about "illegals" they'll also tell you that they want all immigration cut back) are the ones who devolve the argument the quickest by making sensationalist claims (i.e., plans to normalize illegal immigrants is "amnesty" - which a lie or that "illegals" are solely (or primarily) responsible for economic or social problems). Myself, I admit that I do care about the issue quite a bit because of my religious beliefs as well as my love of liberty. I want to see the issue permanently SOLVED and believe it can be...if both sides were willing to give a little and listen to what the other side has to say...beyond the sloganeering (which is silly and stupid).
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> You get more flies with honey than with vinegar. << If I were trying to attract flies, I wouldn't use honey or vinegar - I'd use something else. We know what flies reeeally like!
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Instead, I would support a plan that incentivizes those here illegally to come forward through a program that normalizes their status (so we know who is here and how many) but doesn't give them a cut in line for permanent residency and eventual citizenship. >>> cmpaley, what do you think of the President's plan for immigration reform? I rather like it myself. It's the only one that I've seen that is practical and actually address all of the issues involved, rather than pandering to a particular extreme point of view on one side or the other. And for doing so, I'd say that it's one of the only plans that is actually designed to be implemented as written, rather than used as a tool to promote some other agenda.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >><<< Instead, I would support a plan that incentivizes those here illegally to come forward through a program that normalizes their status (so we know who is here and how many) but doesn't give them a cut in line for permanent residency and eventual citizenship. >>> cmpaley, what do you think of the President's plan for immigration reform? I rather like it myself.<< I think that the President's plan is designed to help corporations more than it is to help the immigrants. Based on what I've read, the immigrant is here at the pleasure of their employer, so if they complain...about anything, even labor law violations, the immigrant is sent packing. >>It's the only one that I've seen that is practical and actually address all of the issues involved, rather than pandering to a particular extreme point of view on one side or the other. And for doing so, I'd say that it's one of the only plans that is actually designed to be implemented as written, rather than used as a tool to promote some other agenda.<< I disagee but think that it's a good start. There is another bill that I think will work much, much better called "The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act of 2005." Take a look at the details...I think this will go much further in reforming and repairing our dismally broken immigration system, dealing with illegal immigrants AND securing BOTH borders. The following site has an excellent summary of the bill: <a href="http://www.visalaw.com/05may4/3may405.html" target="_blank">http://www.visalaw.com/05may4/ 3may405.html</a>
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA You guys suggesting that we 'build a wall' separating Mexico and the US... You're joking right?
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< You guys suggesting that we 'build a wall' separating Mexico and the US... You're joking right? >>> I'm not joking about it. I am probably in the extreme minority of people that think a wall should be built, but I think it should be in conjunction with sensible immigration reform that incorporates some form of guest worker program and deals with the economic and social realities of the situation.
Originally Posted By cmpaley I think immigration reform is the key to truly solving the problem. Walls, however, tend to be put up by regimes that the United States has been known to repudiate, so as an American loyal to the principles of freedom and liberty, I oppose putting a wall around the US.
Originally Posted By SuperDry And to be perfectly clear, I'm referring to a physical wall to prevent illegal entry to the United States over a border that unquestionably is subject to millions of illegal crossings year in and year out. As for immigration policy, I think we should maintain a national policy of encouraging immigration and temporary visits by foreigners, and expand it with a guest worker program to reflect reality, as long as its done in a lawful and orderly fashion.
