Originally Posted By DlandDug Count me among those who are baffled by the harshly negative reaction to this brief news item. I also get the sense that Weiss is engaging in some corporate moonshining-- specifically the notion that the Disney Parks and Resorts' expansion into higher end resorts and experiences is really just another way they are supporting their core activity, theme parks. I also agree that there is an effort within the company to attract a higher-end/higher-income demographic. But, it's been done, and it failed miserably. Pre-opening hype for Disney's California Adventure was heavily tilted toward a "higher-end/higher-income" consumer. And it weren't at all subtle! There were presentations where speakers proudly proclaimed that all that "Disney stuff" would have no place amid the sophisticated offerings of Eisner's faux Golden State. Who wants thrill rides when you can sit on a sun dappled patio, sipping vintage wines and listening to the wind rustle through the leaves on the ripening grapevines? The problem with these executives is that they really don't get it. The Disney theme parks are, ultimately, a show. People have come to expect a fairly specific kind of show. There's nothing wrong in mixing the show up a bit, and it is certainly a good thing to come up with a new show, with the same appeal. But there's a real danger in not just ignoring, but going so far as to offend, a built-in, very loyal audience.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<And if I'm going to France, I'm not going there to visit a Disney park.>> You might night be going to France with DLP as your primary destination, but don't you think you'd check it out if you were in the vicinity of Paris?
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Disney is the master of synergy, and the way that all of their various vacation destination/experiences are tied together perfectly illustrates why Disney management believes that this strategy will succeed.>> Disney is the master of spin. Have you been listening to those of us who frequent WDW. I'm not going to throw WDW under the bus. BUT, come on..... in so many ways it is lacking. I consider myself a Disney fan and I won't stay at a Disney Hotel, simply because I have learned that I can get more staying elsewhere. I have stayed at "true" five star hotels and I have yet to experience the same level of attention by employees give to guests in a WDW hotel or resort. I can remember one time actually argueing with a concierge at the Animal Kingdom Lodge when I was dropping off a package for another person on this board and his family who where vacationing at AKL at that time. There was a huge misunderstanding as Disney's resevation system wasn't recognizing hypenated last names. And I was telling the concierge that this family was in room 4444. Then we have Disney food which in my opinion is lacking and in many cases doesn't come close to what I can get on International Drive or back home.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<You might night be going to France with DLP as your primary destination, but don't you think you'd check it out if you were in the vicinity of Paris?>> Honestly Roadtrip I would not consider it. I would however go to meet up with other people people on this board ( including yourself) if you or they were going to be there. Now, someday would I like to visit DLP, sure! But, since I have never been to Europe if would definately NOT be a priority. There is just too much to do in France. And I would probably never leave the museums in Paris. In case any of UK LPers are reading this.... if I was to attend a meet, then I would suggest somewhere in the UK.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>but don't you think you'd check it out if you were in the vicinity of Paris?<< If I ever go to France, I really don't think DLP would be anywhere on my agenda. Not because I am an anti Disney snob -- hardly! But because I'd want to experience the culture and sites that are part of the fabric of a country, something unique to them. Likewise with Japan. While I know that I'd enjoy a visit to TDS, I personally would be much more interested in exploring local stuff, so at least for a first visit to Japan, no thanks on visiting a Disney park. Now, if it were my second or third visit, sure, I'd want to make a visit to these parks.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Who wants thrill rides when you can sit on a sun dappled patio, sipping vintage wines and listening to the wind rustle through the leaves on the ripening grapevines?<< Relaxation is not on trial here!
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I just pointed about something else to KJ. Typically every Memorial Day weekend I stay at the Hyatt Regency on Whacker St in Chicago. And it's mostly the same staff. I see the same bagboys, the same people working the restaurants. The same goes when I stay at the Best Western in Downtown Disney, year after year I see the same waitress, the same staff. While on my trips to WDW, I use to always stay at Disney Hotels and there was so much staff turnover I can't say I saw a familiar. Individuals who typically stay at high dollar hotels expect to find familiar faces and a certain level of attention. KJ reminded me that todays businesses ( including Disney World ) have lost sight of the improtance of connection between their employees and the guests. People feel more comfortable with familiar staff when they return to a hotel. If Disney is unable to retain employees perhaps they need to review their employment policies. Turnover speaks volumes about a company.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "If I'm going to spend a week at Aulani in Hawaii that isn't going to motivate me to spend a week at DL in Anaheim. And if I'm going to France, I'm not going there to visit a Disney park." Me either, but if you're not a Disney park regular, but took your family to the Aulani and enjoyed it you just might consider taking a Disney cruise or visiting DLR or WDW. Maybe *you *wouldn’t, but it isn’t that far fetched to me to think that some people would choose another Disney destination (theme park) after a positive experience at one of their off site resorts. “The problem with these executives is that they really don't get it. The Disney theme parks are, ultimately, a show.” I think there is a bit of “not getting it” on both sides of the aisle. Aside from sleeping accommodations, I think the same can be said about most any Disney’s hotel, restaurant, water park, cruise ship, etc. What makes the Grand Californian different from a Marriott? It’s all theatrics.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I agree I think that is basically his point. There's two problems with that line of thinking: (1) Based on my own observations on 3 DCL cruises, the vast majority of passengers are people who are already Disney park regulars. I say this based on conversations, attire, and the number of DISBoard magnets/fish extenders. I think DCL is attracting WDW regulars who have never cruised before, not experienced Royal Caribbean/Holland/Princess cruisers. I suspect Alluni will be much the same--filled with Disney fans finally making the trek to Hawaii.>> Oh, how I soooo agree with this and would really like to pontificate with a 6,000 word post, but I'll try and restrain myself. I have done multiple DCL cruises, my last being a 15-night Transatlantic crossing last spring (think I was in Spain a year ago today) and there are a scary number of scary folks who go with Disney, quite frankly, because they are not very sophisticated, view Disney in an almost religious-like way and are plain afraid to cruise without pixie dust. I LOVE DCL. Last year's cruise was one of the best vacations of my life and this Spirit gets around (but he doesn't pick anything up, hopefully!). That said, there were a great many folks I spoke with who (unlike myself) had never taken a cruise with anyone else and/or had never been to Europe/out of the USA. This is an audience that Disney is wooing. Adventures By Disney may show what look like affluent, well-traveled and cultured families in their ad campaign, but the reality is they are largely targeting bumpkins with money, who wouldn't dream (MAGICal word) of taking a trip to Italy, China, Australia or, yes, Egypt sans Mickey. Aulani is out to target two audiences. One is Japanese folks who tend to love both Hawaii and Mickey. The other would be that group referenced above. The pixie dusters. Having stayed at the JW Marriott at Ko Olina, I just can't imagine Disney is targeting the typical guest who will be staying next door. <<(2) If a Disney "refuser" actually did break down and take a cruise, THEN went to WDW, I dare say the drop in quality would more than likely turn them off the company as a whole. It's a weakest link argument--doesn't matter how nice your ships and Hawaii DVC are, you're always going to be best known for your flagship theme park complex.>> I will never regard WDW as the flagship of theme parks. DL begat everything that followed. It is the one, even though corporate would agree with the above. And as someone who has visited every Disney resort in the last 18 months and taken the DCL, I can't say enough how strongly I agree with you. WDW may be the biggest. It may have the most parks, hotels and timeshares. But when it comes to quality in all the key areas, it would rank dead last to me. It's living on reputation and targeting guests based on nostalgia (remember when we used to really care?) and comfort factor. I may love DCL, but there's no way I'd take a seven-night cruise with them vs. Princess or Celebrity when I compare prices. Money doesn't seem to matter to a large chunk of the 'Disney is an emotional crutch for me and my family' crowd.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I just flat out don't agree with your last argument, SeventyOne. Anyone going to WDW for the first time is going to be totally blown away by the place. They're not going to see any of the things that regulars here complain about. They're not going to care that the MK is light on new E ticket attractions. They're just going to be amazed that there is so much more to do than at their local Six Flags. >> And I flat out disagree with the above. Or some of it. I do think many first-timers will visit the Walmarted WDW of 2011 and absolutely be blown away by all of it. BUT ... I also think there's a significant amount of first-timers who visit and find it overpriced, crowded,poorly maintained, staffed by unhappy and/or clueless CMs and truly not only aren't happy, but come out disliking the place and vowing to never return. Disney is aware of both of the above groups and seem to feel that it's OK to lose a significant number of first-timers because they believe there's an endless supply to replace them.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>...the reality is they are largely targeting bumpkins with money...<< And this assessment is based on... what? Have you taken a number of trips with the "bumpkins" of ABD? I ask, because I have for the past two years had a LOT of experience with Adventures by Disney. I have been pleasantly surprised by the mix of people who avail themselves of ABD. True, there are a certain number of scary folk whose sole interest seems to be collectible pins. But the vast majority are just nice people who enjoy travel and have the wherewithal to take Disney's packaged tours. (And no, I haven't been taking trips with ABD for the past two years. I am neither a bumpkin, nor do I have the money!)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I also agree that there is an effort within the company to attract a higher-end/higher-income demographic. But, it's been done, and it failed miserably. Pre-opening hype for Disney's California Adventure was heavily tilted toward a "higher-end/higher-income" consumer. And it weren't at all subtle! There were presentations where speakers proudly proclaimed that all that "Disney stuff" would have no place amid the sophisticated offerings of Eisner's faux Golden State. Who wants thrill rides when you can sit on a sun dappled patio, sipping vintage wines and listening to the wind rustle through the leaves on the ripening grapevines?>> I'd argue something else, a few things actually: that Disney, obviously wants as much money as possible (and those higher-end clientele certainly have that), but I'd also say that Disney is more cautious with those guests because they EXPECT/DEMAND more. They well understand, for instance, that many WDW Resorts are four star when it comes to amazing design/theming and even amenities. But Disney also realizes it has dumbed its product down, so many folks paying $400 a night for a hotel room (say it with me, folks ...) in ORLANDO are getting 2-3 star service and many small details (like quality towels for instance ... or turndown service) are ignored. You can't do that at Ritz Carlton/Four Seasons price points (often more ... much more). I'd also argue that Disney had those guests at WDW for much of its first 25 years. But when Disney kept lowering the bar, many of those guests decided they had been there and done that. A guest living in a small Tennessee town (although bringing in six figures a year as some sort of USA Gov job) is going to be a whole lot easier to please than a cosmopolitan world-traveler ... Disney knows this, so they'd much rather take the $$$ from the former type of guest rather than the latter.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<And if I'm going to France, I'm not going there to visit a Disney park.>> <<You might night be going to France with DLP as your primary destination, but don't you think you'd check it out if you were in the vicinity of Paris? >> I hate to admit it, but I agree with the Tripster ;-) Any Disney fan who travels to Paris and doesn't spend at least a day at DLP is doing themselves a great diservice. It's akin to folks who don't visit DL (or WDW for that matter) because they've been to the other. If you're not a Disney nut, then that's fine. But you wouldn't be here if that were the case (none of us would) so the rulez be different for us!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<KJ reminded me that todays businesses ( including Disney World ) have lost sight of the improtance of connection between their employees and the guests. People feel more comfortable with familiar staff when they return to a hotel. If Disney is unable to retain employees perhaps they need to review their employment policies. Turnover speaks volumes about a company.>> Very good point, KT. And it something that has a lot to do with all the true MAGIC that has been taken away from WDW over the years. There was a time when you could walk into a shop on Main Street or Guest Relations at EPCOT and the same CM you talked to in (fill in a year so long as it was in the 1971-1991 period) was still there. I doubt there's one CM at the Emporium today who worked there in 2005 let alone 1990 ... Disney has a very transient workforce by design now. But that also means when you get welcomed home at the WL front desk it sure as hell won't be by anyone who worked there in 1994 when the resort opened. But passing out DVC stickers and giving away a free pin every now and then builds those same connections, doesn't it?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<And this assessment is based on... what? Have you taken a number of trips with the "bumpkins" of ABD?>> Simple. Because I don't know one sophisticated traveler who would ever pay the type of premiums ABD commands. People who travel at that level tend to value money and tours with Disney just don't offer that, although I'm sure they're a quality product.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I hate to admit it, but I agree with the Tripster ;-)>> I would have to check it out. The photos I've seen of DLP have left me very intrigued. It looks like DLP may have one of the most interesting castles of any Disney park, and I LOVE the look of DLP's Space Mountain. I would of course want to see Paris, but actually some of the smaller villages (as shown in Impressions de France at Epcot) intrigue me a lot more.
Originally Posted By Tony C <<BUT ... I also think there's a significant amount of first-timers who visit and find it overpriced, crowded,poorly maintained, staffed by unhappy and/or clueless CMs>> Granted I only visit every five years but I have never encountered any of those things especially the CM's they've been nothing but the best.
Originally Posted By danyoung >I do think many first-timers will visit the Walmarted WDW of 2011 and absolutely be blown away by all of it. BUT ... I also think there's a significant amount of first-timers who visit and find it overpriced, crowded,poorly maintained, staffed by unhappy and/or clueless CMs and truly not only aren't happy, but come out disliking the place and vowing to never return.< I don't deny that there are people who fall into the latter category. But I strongly feel that the vast majority fall into the former. So we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, my friend Spirit.
Originally Posted By leobloom <<BUT ... I also think there's a significant amount of first-timers who visit and find it overpriced, crowded,poorly maintained, staffed by unhappy and/or clueless CMs>> << Granted I only visit every five years but I have never encountered any of those things especially the CM's they've been nothing but the best. >> Honestly? You've never encountered anything overpriced at WDW? You must be made of money, man. Not to mention you've never witnessed poor maintenance at the parks? I guess you've never ridden Everest or 99% of the other attractions that have broken effects.
