Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer By today's standards? It's less than amazing, but back then? And as a kid? That felt SO real. All the things you call lame, and outdated, Hokie, easily live on in Disneyland with actual care, maintenance, and refurbishments. Amazing what a park can do when it actually cares about it's legacy and history.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>There was a time when there was a real effort to fix the problems at 20K including a redesign of the loading/unloading hatches to help keep the subs from taking on water<< I was aware that going through waterfalls was really the issue on why they took on water, but I didn't know Disney had made a serious effort to redesign the hatches to help keep the ride operating. Funny, because this continued to be a minor issue here and there for the DL subs too after they came back in 2007. >>and an Imagineering department that was being neutered.<< While I place more historical blame than most folks do on WDI for where we find ourselves all today, in my mind this one was all on Orlando. From my recollection when Orlando got around to asking WDI for replacement options they were presented a few concepts that were well received and would have been substantial. Considering I didn't have a good perspective at the time to understand the full ramifications of the changes going on at EPCOT Center, I would be as bold to say that the period between 1994-1996 dealing with 20K was the first time I thought something was fundamentally wrong with Orlando management. We had Indy, ToT new resorts, etc.. so in the grand scheme of things it looked like the domestic parks had never been better, but the 20K issue was the first issue large enough, for me I guess, that I finally saw the writing on the wall to how folks in Orlando wanted to manage the property. A lot of small operational cuts and pleasantries started occurring right after for a host of reasons, some due to growth of the resort.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<It's less than amazing, but back then? And as a kid? That felt SO real. >> Meh, never struck a cord with me. The lagoon was nice scenery, but other than that, it was lame. <<All the things you call lame, and outdated, Hokie, easily live on in Disneyland with actual care, maintenance, and refurbishments. >> I'm sure they do. It also doesn't bother me that they've closed in WDW. <<Amazing what a park can do when it actually cares about it's legacy and history. >> Yea, like when they moved out CoP. Or closed Country Bears. Disneyland has closed classic attractions as well.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 We could say a lot about the mgmt of the Orlando property, but it's better that we don't.
Originally Posted By brotherdave One person's "lame" is another person's "treasure". I always liked 20,000 Leagues and hoped they would have kept it operating. But given what we know and what sjhym333 has reported, it was probably one of the few attractions that probably had to be replaced due to mechanical issues. That doesn't explain Mr. Toad, Horizons, World of Motion, Journey Into Imagination, etc. All fine attractions that probably could have been updated to meet today's audiences, but still be true to the main spirit of the original attractions. There's no question that the three big EPCOT Center Omnimovers were replaced or shortened to offer attractions of much shorter duration. Gone were the 15-20 minute "mega" dark rides, replaced with the much shorter 3-5 minute rides. Add in Fast Pass, then Less people on a ride or in line = more people possibly buying something somewhere...so sad....
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> Yea, like when they moved out CoP. Or closed Country Bears. Disneyland has closed classic attractions as well. <<<< That was then, when Disneyland was still carving out it's identity. Now? They'd never do that.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper Dude, CBJ closed like 8 years ago at Disneyland. That's pretty far into it's history. Besides, at least there's a reason for keeping old things there. It's the original park.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Eh, I think that there's a place for the old stuff, but they need to think about the new too. Since the merchandise bonanza that was the 50th, DL has been so inward and backward focused that it kind of takes away from what the park is right now. Yes, it should keep some of the history, but at what expense? It seems like almost all of the merchandise these days features the generic character logo featuring the current year, or some 'historical' looking clothing. All of the marketing and shows seem to feature how great DL used to be, without talking about how great it is today. It's tough to describe, but it seems like the current look back is getting in the way of the park moving forward. Heck, we've had the same window displays at the Emporium since the 50th began (in May 2005...almost 6 years ago!), featuring old window displays from the park's past. They were old and tired looking during the 50th, but they were fun because they celebrated the park's history. Now, they just look old and tired, and aren't really even relevant to anything going on. DL is the original park and should be able to have some historical stuff, but they seem to be putting that in the way of real progress.
Originally Posted By avimagine How about a "re-imagineering" of an "olde ride", hey if they bring Ariel out just now... They could just add a Meet the Robinsons ride on the old RR PM track. Or as I said countless times if it's too cost prohibitive to have as a ride at least add some kinetic energy up there running empty ambience vehiles (They wouldn't have to worry about OSHA concerns then would they?) just to keep it "alive" up there. The vehicles could be empty if it's not a ride and built to lighter standards so track work wouldn't have to be as "Heavy" when rebuilt. Then they could put up a real ride later. If Suesses Landing can do that DL can.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 The homogenization of merchandise was a corporate decision and part of the one world/one park initative. You can see it in merchandise, things like napkins and cups, even commercials. I was watching a for Disney in which the voiceover was talking about WDW but contained pictures from DL and DLP. So you know that it is being used around the world with different voiceovers. This was all part of Rasulo's plan when he was in charge of the parks. I think he may have done more to damage the Disney theme park experience more than any other person before him.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I know that everyone loves to use these boards to wish on but the continuous desire to have Disney reincarnate a now closed (extinct) attraction is just not going to happen. It was closed because it couldn't draw crowds anymore versus the cost to operate it. Re-imagineering it will not change it's basic appeal without losing the original concept. In other words, it many have the same, or almost the same name but it will be nothing like it's predecessor. Example...Imagination with Figment. It's almost impossible to get them to invest in new stuff with the potential to have drawing power, they're certainly not going to spend millions on something that has already failed. Personally I can't wait for the rumored Space Penguin attraction.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>Dude, CBJ closed like 8 years ago at Disneyland. That's pretty far into it's history. Besides, at least there's a reason for keeping old things there. It's the original park<<< Was referring to CoP... and lots of fans are up in arms about CBJ. So? MK is the second park. It has it's History, too.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I'm with EE-- younger kids especially always seemed to love 20K--and much like 'accepting' a reality/fantasy warp when you enter WDW..accepting the 20K ride as more realistic than it was seemed easy. I have not been to DL since the subs re-emerged- but i'm guessing I'd still like them
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer ^ The same thing happened to me with the Living Seas... Those Hydrolators were moving for all that I knew.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I have not been to DL since the subs re-emerged- but i'm guessing I'd still like them<< Vb, I think you would enjoy them for what they are, and more so, enjoy the atmosphere they now create in that area of the park. It certainly brought back life and energy to an area that had become more depressing (and detrimental) than MK's inoperable lagoon. Tomorrowland really nailed it at a time, in one block you could visit innerspace, liquid space, and outer-space. It's ironic, now, that MK is finally getting it's Mermaid ride since for a short time in 1996 they where pretty much advertising a Little Mermaid ride as a soon-to-come replacement for that location. Getting us to that point has not been pretty! Forget 20K specifically, it could be a whole new ride experience for all I care. For me, I will still miss the opportunity to experience the unique setting a sub provides as a conveyance in presenting an attraction. Well, at least when I find myself in Orlando rather than Anaheim.
Originally Posted By New Orleans lady The old idea of a villains theme park still appeals to me. Also adding countries to world showcase.
Originally Posted By avimagine I don't know I think Pooh's Playground is something that has caused people to fly in from all over the world. 20K though goofier especially I think has the power to draw as it's in the "Fantasy" realm. Even if shows like Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea doesn't exist, subs are something most people just don't experience all the time. In regards to Horizon for example well lets say a Roomsized CRT doesn't cut it when we have 60"+ Plasmas, and 80"+ DLPs and projectors capable of 130"+. Kind of like how COP needs a new fourth room. Maybe if they changed it to "this is a few examples of what over time we thought the future is like, compared to today we'll we've just surpassed most of these visions. What do you think the future can hold?" maybe it would work better and not need as many updates for example.
Originally Posted By brotherdave >> The same thing happened to me with the Living Seas... Those Hydrolators were moving for all that I knew. << You know, it's funny. I was a young adult when Living Seas opened. I knew that the Hydrolators were never "real", but I always thought they were real elevators going from one floor to the next (like Disneyland's Haunted Mansion), especially since the Living Seas pavilion is two stories inside. Imagine my surprise that when riding the Hydrolators years later, both sets of doors accidently opened at the same time when it "stopped". I then realized it was just an illusion, but it was an effective illusion. I knew we weren't traveling "hundreds of feet" below the ocean's surface, but figured we were at least moving from the top floor of the pavilion to the bottom floor.
