Originally Posted By Mr X >>>it is an excuse to continue supporting an organization that has systematically molested children and covered it up.<<< Yes. And a very convenient excuse since it involves "important rituals" that are too imporant to be ignored, and might piss off god himself! >>You don't solve a problem by blithely ignoring the fact that you are supporting it via attendance, time, materials, and money.<< Yes, again. BUT, let's not let rape and aquiescence of rape to the highest levels of the church get in the way of that oh so important ritual that we MUST do, lest we piss off god! (ever consider that god might already be pissed?)
Originally Posted By jonvn The only reason they think it will annoy god, is because they were told so. By the people who are now being shown to have covered up child molestations. OK, makes sense to me to listen to them.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>The problems with molestation stem from the celibacy requirements, in my opinion. You won't attract well-rounded men with mature emotional development if you don't allow men who have successful adult romantic relationships into the clergy. Celibacy isn't a mark of faith, it's a mark of stunted emotional growth.<< This I agree with. I said as much in another thread, and was scoffed at (by VBDad I think), but you explained it very well. < ' youmight want to get our 'hystrical' rantings straight, it as not me who dscussed this topic as I alsobelieve priests shoud be allowed to marry as they have been for much of the time of the Catholic churches existence. and while I dont believe that will completely solve the issue it would help.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad The fact is that most of the world we live in is the world, worldly, bad. Find your happiness, get in there with your happiness, protect your happiness, line in your happiness as much as possible. Do something about what you CAN do something about. Make things happen for you and your family. Take control of your own life and circumstances. And teach your kids, "Never, ever let anyone tell you that you CAN'T, ever. Find your dream and follow it, go get it." Yep its a bad world out there. But a small part of it is what you make it.
Originally Posted By jonvn Celibacy is an easy target, and probably has a lot to do with this particular church having this issue so much. But molestations happen everywhere. In protestant churches, in youth groups of all kinds.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer God's not going to get mad because someone doesn't take Communion. That's not what it's all about. Communicants don't celebrate the Eucharist to please God. It's not an act driven by fear.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >I kind of agree. We're starting to get into the typical pile of gibberish that encumbers all these religious ideas. "We have THIS, so we're RIGHT!" And all that< No one is going down that road, jonvn. I'm certainly not. I'm not even Catholic and I don't think they are right about transubstantiation at all. I'm just trying to explain why some people remain with the church even with the problems. It seems as though your questions are rhetorical, however. You already had the answer you would accept before you asked the question. I was just trying to show you a reason why people might stay.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer "But molestations happen everywhere. In protestant churches, in youth groups of all kinds." Molestations happen in neighborhoods, in schools, in homes, in workplaces. And they are often covered up in those places as well.
Originally Posted By jonvn "God's not going to get mad because someone doesn't take Communion." Then there is not much point in doing it, is there. "No one is going down that road, jonvn" Yes, you are. You're telling me about something that these folks think this certain thing is right, and so forget any other problems or issues that may enter into the equation. I think it's nonsense. It may be an accurate description on your part, but it is nonsense. "I was just trying to show you a reason why people might stay." The reason is utterly ridiculous, and probably accurate. "Molestations happen in neighborhoods, in schools, in homes, in workplaces." Those areas would probably be then included in my statement of "everywhere." "And they are often covered up in those places as well. " Perhaps they are. If it happened in a systematic manner, and was not the criminal act of one or two people, then I'd have nothing to do with those organizations, either. And neither would anyone with any sense.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF This is an excellent LA Times piece I discovered via Andrew Sullivan's blog: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2e8v3w" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2e8v3w</a> I'm not even going to try to summarize it here, but it is worth reading in whole.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF Ack...hit the SUBMIT button too soon... It is an LA Times article written by the religion beat reporter for the newspaper and his struggle over his faith and spirituality in light of things such as the Catholic Church scandals.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>I kind of agree. We're starting to get into the typical pile of gibberish that encumbers all these religious ideas. "We have THIS, so we're RIGHT!" And all that< No one is going down that road, jonvn. I'm certainly not. I'm not even Catholic and I don't think they are right about transubstantiation at all. I'm just trying to explain why some people remain with the church even with the problems.< no, no one is going down this road except Jonvn who has made up his mind he is right 100% and everyone else is wrong - need to stop feeding this as it is not an exercise that is going to result in any listening..any facts you state will be 'hysterical' to Mr X and just plain wrong or stupid to jonvn... I thought you were doing a good job TS picking up the discussion - but you can;t have a discussion if only one side is listening
Originally Posted By Mr X I'm listening very closely to what TomSawyer has to say. Of course, he wasn't one of the folks who accused people of "going to hell" and whatnot in the past week. As for those people, yes, I think "hysterical" pretty much covers their behavior.
Originally Posted By Mr X BlueDevil...great article by the way. That guy certainly did the right thing (even if he was slow in coming around).
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I'm listening very closely to what TomSawyer has to say. Of course, he wasn't one of the folks who accused people of "going to hell" and whatnot in the past week. As for those people, yes, I think "hysterical" pretty much covers their behavior.< put the broad brush away, that was only one person who said that, and likely it was tongue in cheek
Originally Posted By Mr X Many similar things were said, or implied. And by the majority of the posters who were defending peoples wish to stay with the church. No broad brush here...I was quite shocked actually (and interested, in a clinical sense).
Originally Posted By vbdad55 post where more than one person said that -- we can post where religion was called hokey, Christ compares to Santa Claus etc.. but for all the 'hysterical' comments you claim - I remember exactly one, and again I believe it was done tongue in cheek, but it was not me so I cannto say for sure....
Originally Posted By Mr X I didn't "compare Christ to Santa Claus", I stated a fact, that just because you think something is real doesn't make it so...maybe YOU should go back and re-read. And even if so, where is the personal attack in stating the opinion that religion is hokey, or that believing in some afterlife is akin to believing in other make believe stuff? Don't WE have a right to believe what WE want to? I guess not, since we're intruding on the "sacred". Here are the links, in response to post 78. <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-88530-P-1.asp" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms gBoard-T-88530-P-1.asp</a> <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-88561-P-1.asp" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms gBoard-T-88561-P-1.asp</a>
