Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<No. That is fine. I would just like to see some acknowledgment that returning WDW to what existed 30 years ago would once again make it unaffordable for many families looking to have a on-property Disney experience. Recognize that somewhat decreased quality has also increased accessibility, and recognize that there may be some value in that trade-off. I'm sure we would all like a Fillet Mignon WDW at a McDonalds price. But we also know that just ain't possible. So when you are lamenting about perceived decreases in quality remember the trade-offs that are involved.>> Sorry, I don't buy that for a second. Both are possible without sacrificing each other. I had a delicious 15 dollar Fillet Mignon meal at Mythos at Universal. To say Disney is incapable of doing the same is ludicrous.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Would be interesting to know if there are any generalities there. I think a lot of Central Floridians, especially people who have worked at the World for many years, recognize WDW isn't what it used to be. Maybe if I traveled 600 miles to WDW, I would be more forgiving so that I wouldn't feel like I was getting hosed by the Mouse.>> I think much of the difference is that locals tend not to care as much about on-site costs because it is much easier for them to stay off-site than it is for someone coming from 1,000 miles away. I also think many of the people contributing to this thread are young people without families. It is much cheaper for one person to go to WDW than it is for a family of four. I've been going to WDW for 19 years now. I know it used to be higher quality in ways than it is now. I remember when the WDW park guide books were guide books and not maps. I also know that the first time we went we there had to stay off-site and eat all of our meals (except for a lunch of soup at the Tomorrowland Terrace) off-site because that is all we could afford. At that time WDW had only one moderate resort (Caribbean Beach) and no value resorts. The next time we went to WDW it was four years later. We scrimped and saved so that we could stay on-site... at the All Star Music. It was WONDERFUL. Now we were not visiting WDW, we were LIVING in WDW. Now it has been over 10 years since I've stayed in either a value or moderate resort. As I got older my finances improved and I could spend more on Disney vacations. But Disney's PRIME audience is like I was in 1991 and 1995... young families who usually have a fairly tight budget. So when I notice the diminished quality at WDW I measure that against the absolute joy I felt in 1995 when I was first able to have a family vacation on-site. Would I take that opportunity away from anyone to restore the quality that existed in the early days? No way in hell. By the way... regardless of a deal you might find somewhere, overall if you are going to increase quality you are going to increase expense. It is foolish to think otherwise. Chevy's and BMW's are priced like they are for a reason. Quality costs money. As far as a good $15 Fillet Mignon; CONGRATS!! I don't think I've ever had a good $15 Fillet... at a themepark or anywhere else!
Originally Posted By Manfried I think many of the negative commentators on WDW come from the same ilk as the Disneyland ones. They visit the place way too often. WDW was meant as a once a year visit, not go there every other day. When you get too close to something you're going to see nothing but warts. Everyone should back away for a while and look at it with fresher eyes.
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///Certainly EE coulda been a classic, and I guess a lot of people see it that way. I see the ride itself as large step below Big Thunder./// Ya, Big Thunder Mnt. really is noticeably superior to Everest. Everest's actual story(not the back story--aka queue--- which is stellar) was so poorly told: missing steam down time during track switch bird-on-a-stick gratuitous backward travel video Yeti static Yeti flash Yeti .....too bad that we zip right by the furry manequin, I mean ticked off Tibetan snow beast.
Originally Posted By The Duck NikkiLOVESMickey and RoadTrip have been reading my mind! <<<I've seen the behavior that RoadTrip is talking of on these boards far too often. The outright criticism of people who stay at the value resorts (characterizing them all as rednecks) has almost become a sport among some posters on this boards. Apparently, these same posters believe that their "superior" intelligence gives them the right to look down their noses at those beneath them. It's offensive and it's been noted by others on these boards.>>> Many of the comments remind me of Frasier and Niles Crane saying that the only thing that they love more than eating in a 4 star resturant is finding a single flaw in the meal so they can complain about it. Life's too short to be so bitter and miserable.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Would I take that opportunity away from anyone to restore the quality that existed in the early days? No way in hell.<<< So... Getting more people to see a dumbed down product is better than keeping the product fresh, and new? What happened to Show > Efficiency? Is the Pixie Dust that strong? LOL. Honesty, staying off site has no negative impact on my trips, and nor does having a tight student budget. LOL.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I think many of the negative commentators on WDW come from the same ilk as the Disneyland ones. They visit the place way too often. WDW was meant as a once a year visit, not go there every other day. When you get too close to something you're going to see nothing but warts. Everyone should back away for a while and look at it with fresher eyes.<<<< I go once/twice a year. So... because of that, I should be so enthralled with the pace that I can't see some of it is falling apart, entertainment is non existent, and synergy rules the mouse? Why are we suddenly supposed to turn our brains off when on vacation?! .... >>>meal so they can complain about it. Life's too short to be so bitter and miserable. <<< it's not about being miserable, or complaining, it's just about comparisons. And knowing that though Disney is still paramount, still "magical", it could be a lot better. Walt forbid we get complacent. *He* wasn't.
Originally Posted By MousDad I will not stop criticizing WDW until it is run with the same professionalism and care as Disneyland. It doesn't matter to me that it is good enough and still fun. It cannot be argued that TWDC's attitude towards Orlando is lax, compared Anaheim. That's what I'm fighting. I don't have any personal beef against Pixie Dusters.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer DL has better quality, MousDad, but the synergy is still there. Honestly, that's my biggest problem. Bores me to death.
Originally Posted By danyoung Wow - leave a thread for 18 hours and it EXPLODES! Really good discussion, and some nice points being made by many. I want to comment on a couple of things, first in reference to Everest - >missing steam down time during track switch bird-on-a-stick gratuitous backward travel video Yeti static Yeti flash Yeti< The steam is back as of a month ago, and is a great effect. The down time during the track switch does nothing but increase the anticipation for me. Not an effect per se, but not at all a distraction. The bird on a stick, while not the greatest effect, is at least working again. I find absolutely nothing gratuitous about the backward travel of the train. It's the highlight of the ride, IMO. The video appearance of the yeti is a very nice effect, used perfectly to start off the fast downward part of the trip. Of course I wish the actual yeti was still working. But I find that the yeti NOT working doesn't seriously diminish my enjoyment of a great roller coaster. Combine a terrific ride with amazing theming and a compelling backstory, and you have one of the best attractions ever, certainly an easy E ticket and a home run by Disney. >And honestly, I don't see people saying the "blah blah blah blah blah!!" version. Sure, some have more concerns than others, but I don't think anyone that hates the company that much is going to be activly posting on a WDW Forum.< I just have to say that you're not reading the same posts that I am. And I don't really think it's about hatred - it's about disappointment in the Disney company, and I can understand that. But as I keep saying, the balance of the negative to the positive is way off. It's not about people being impressionable. It's about someone coming to sites like this looking for advice on their upcoming trip, being hit with a barrage of comments about how bad things are and how dirty they are and how unpleasant their experiences were, and that person deciding "Hmmm - maybe WDW has gone so far downhill that it's just not a good place to visit. I think I'll take the family to Yellowstone this year." And that's sad - not that there's anything wrong with Yellowstone, of course - but that people get an inaccurate picture of a place that most of us continue to love.
Originally Posted By Mr X Dude, "fighting" is a pretty strong word. I could be angry that DL isn't run with the same professionalism and care as TDL (duh), but it seems pretty relative when you think about it. ***It cannot be argued that TWDC's attitude towards Orlando is lax, compared Anaheim*** Wow. Intense much? I would argue that there are elements of Orlando that leave Anaheim in the dust, and vice versa. Customer service wise, Hong Kong AND Tokyo destroy them both across the board. So why the intensity? Take it for what it is. Florida is more laid back...BUT has incredible and unique offerings such as Epcot and Animal Kingdom and the myriad resorts. Disneyland has what? One? One and a half? Even Tokyo only boasts three full on luxury resorts and Hong Kong just two...Orlando blows them all out of the water with at least six premium resorts and I think it fair to say a few more stack up as well. And water parks. And nightlife that beats the heck out of the Asian resorts by a LONGSHOT. And lakes and watercraft and the like. And horses. The list goes on, but the vitriolic "ANAHEIM IS SO MUCH BETTER!" line only goes so far (even if you ARE talking nothing but quality and service).
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I just have to say that you're not reading the same posts that I am. And I don't really think it's about hatred - it's about disappointment in the Disney company, and I can understand that. But as I keep saying, the balance of the negative to the positive is way off. It's not about people being impressionable. It's about someone coming to sites like this looking for advice on their upcoming trip, being hit with a barrage of comments about how bad things are and how dirty they are and how unpleasant their experiences were, and that person deciding "Hmmm - maybe WDW has gone so far downhill that it's just not a good place to visit. I think I'll take the family to Yellowstone this year." And that's sad - not that there's anything wrong with Yellowstone, of course - but that people get an inaccurate picture of a place that most of us continue to love.<<<< I'm not seeing that, in those types of threads at all. I know for a fact, that when I try to answer questions, I'm positive. And inaccurate? It's only inaccurate if you disagree. Some people actually agree here! LOL.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>So why the intensity? Take it for what it is. Florida is more laid back...BUT has incredible and unique offerings such as Epcot and Animal Kingdom and the myriad resorts. Disneyland has what? One? One and a half? Even Tokyo only boasts three full on luxury resorts and Hong Kong just two...Orlando blows them all out of the water with at least six premium resorts and I think it fair to say a few more stack up as well. And water parks. And nightlife that beats the heck out of the Asian resorts by a LONGSHOT. And lakes and watercraft and the like. And horses.<<<< I have to agree with this. WDW is astounding in it's scope. We still have that. We just need to keep it up, better.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 I think the attempt to figure out the "type" of person who complains and what their motivations are might be off. I think it has most to do with your history with the Disney company. I grew up in Michigan, with a grandma in Florida and California. So I have been going to both parks since I popped out 40 ish years ago. Granted, my family went to DL more that WDW, but we definitely did both. That history with both parks shapes my "doom and gloom" criticism of the mouse more than anything else. As for current situation, I don't live close to either resort, so I definitely have to travel more than 600 miles. I am not young and single, so I have to cover cost for more than just myself (but I will say I only have one kiddo to pay for). Because I have moved to ND, I will say that I am one who should enjoy a burger in Disney better than home (true). And that is certainly a part of why I go. But it doesn't seem to have put me in rose colored glasses. I used to have to scrimp and save to go to Disney; not quite as much anymore. I have stayed on property and off, but mostly on as I prefer it. I have stayed at every level of hotel there is on property. I have stayed at the All Stars twice, and agree that the first time was the first time I stayed on Disney property so the price point did allow that. But my complaints about the resort were from my days of a young family and no money! It was too darn small a room, too darn far from the lobby, pools were too busy for the littlest kids (which I had), and I wanted a sit down restaurant. All of those concerns would actually be LESS now that I don't have a toddler. So I guess I am saying that my personal situation doesn't even come close to the assumptions being made about the two factions of posters we are dissecting. On another note>>Leobloom, you are on fire today! What a hoot! And I truly do want to sign up for one of your bathroom tours of WDW. Love it!
Originally Posted By sjhym333 I find the whole cheaper for families to afford and elitism discussion interesting. I dont think anyone here has talked about elitism or that WDW shouldn't be affordable for families. I think the addition of the Value Resorts was a great idea. I find their themeing fun and a great place for budget minded guests to enjoy the Disney resort experience. I think both the Value Resorts and the most expensive resorts can coexist. There is a market for both. I have stayed in every resort on property at one time or another and our choice was based on what we could afford at the time. I have no problems that Disney serves burgers and fries. I love to have a good burger in the parks. I also like on occasion to have a very nice sit down meal in a nice restaurant. I think the dining plan has affected the way Disney does dining and not for the better. The dumbing down of menus is just another part of the homogenization of the experience. It has also made harder to make a last minute decision about where to eat. It is silly to expect that when a person goes on vacation that all experiences should be affordable to all guests. A guest has to make choices on what they can realistically afford. It was no different in the 70's and 80's or today. When we couldnt afford to stay on property in the 80's we stayed off property. It was not the end of the world. A burger and fries was always an option at WDW. Plus there was also great affordable options at EPCOT like the counter service places in Mexico, China and Japan. On some trips we could afford a nice dinner in the castle and on other trips we couldnt. Its all a trade off. I travel to NYC several times a year. Sometimes we do McDonalds and other times we eat at Bobby Flay's resturant. It all has to do with what we can afford. The general issue for me is quality. I have been visiting WDW since 1971. I worked in mgmt and in Imagineering in the 80's and 90's and I can say as both a guest and an ex-CM that the quality has dropped. Why do burned out light bulbs on Main Street annoy me? Because I remember that at one time that would be unacceptable to our mgmt. In fact WDW was so proud of the fact that there was a guy whose job each day was to replace those bulbs that the literature from the parks discussed it. I am a firm believer in what Kevin Yee calls Decline by Degrees. If the standard starts out as A but someone decides that they can save some money by cutting back on something then the standard has now become B. Which might be ok, but the next time some changes need to be made then the new standard is C. All of a sudden 15 years down the road the standard if G. G is a long way from A. And that is hard for those us who remember A.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 @sjhym333>> What a reasonable and excellent post! Yay! Decline by Degrees is right on the money in my book.
Originally Posted By MousDad >>Dude, "fighting" is a pretty strong word.<< Thank you. I hate weakness and complacency. >>I could be angry that DL isn't run with the same professionalism and care as TDL (duh), but it seems pretty relative when you think about it. << I have no idea what this statement means. >>***It cannot be argued that TWDC's attitude towards Orlando is lax, compared Anaheim Wow. Intense much?***<< Thank you. I hate weakness and complacency. >>So why the intensity? Take it for what it is. Florida is more laid back...<< Because I hate weakenss and complacency. >>The list goes on, but the vitriolic "ANAHEIM IS SO MUCH BETTER!" line only goes so far (even if you ARE talking nothing but quality and service).<< I'm not talking about quality or service. Neither am I talking about content of the resort. I'm talking about how the parks are MANAGED DIFFERENTLY. And this relates to TDO's approach, and the parent WD P&R that allows it. MY attitude is what got things turned around in Anaheim. I just want the same thing to happen in Orlando. Sorry if you don't like it or think it's not necessary.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>That history with both parks shapes my "doom and gloom" criticism of the mouse more than anything else<<< EXACTLY. All deals with your personal experience.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I find the whole cheaper for families to afford and elitism discussion interesting. I dont think anyone here has talked about elitism or that WDW shouldn't be affordable for families. I think the addition of the Value Resorts was a great idea. I find their themeing fun and a great place for budget minded guests to enjoy the Disney resort experience. I think both the Value Resorts and the most expensive resorts can coexist. There is a market for both. I have stayed in every resort on property at one time or another and our choice was based on what we could afford at the time. I have no problems that Disney serves burgers and fries. I love to have a good burger in the parks. I also like on occasion to have a very nice sit down meal in a nice restaurant. I think the dining plan has affected the way Disney does dining and not for the better. The dumbing down of menus is just another part of the homogenization of the experience. It has also made harder to make a last minute decision about where to eat. It is silly to expect that when a person goes on vacation that all experiences should be affordable to all guests. A guest has to make choices on what they can realistically afford. It was no different in the 70's and 80's or today. When we couldnt afford to stay on property in the 80's we stayed off property. It was not the end of the world. A burger and fries was always an option at WDW. Plus there was also great affordable options at EPCOT like the counter service places in Mexico, China and Japan. On some trips we could afford a nice dinner in the castle and on other trips we couldnt. Its all a trade off. I travel to NYC several times a year. Sometimes we do McDonalds and other times we eat at Bobby Flay's resturant. It all has to do with what we can afford. The general issue for me is quality. I have been visiting WDW since 1971. I worked in mgmt and in Imagineering in the 80's and 90's and I can say as both a guest and an ex-CM that the quality has dropped. Why do burned out light bulbs on Main Street annoy me? Because I remember that at one time that would be unacceptable to our mgmt. In fact WDW was so proud of the fact that there was a guy whose job each day was to replace those bulbs that the literature from the parks discussed it. I am a firm believer in what Kevin Yee calls Decline by Degrees. If the standard starts out as A but someone decides that they can save some money by cutting back on something then the standard has now become B. Which might be ok, but the next time some changes need to be made then the new standard is C. All of a sudden 15 years down the road the standard if G. G is a long way from A. And that is hard for those us who remember A.<<< This post made my day! A very, very, very good voice of reason here. When you were in WDI...what did you work on?
Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey <<No, I just think it's a little low to bring up personal problems in whats a valid and honestly, entertaining thread for discussion. >> EE, why is it acceptable to refer to classes of people as "rednecks" when you and I both know that if a similar tag was applied to races and ethnic groups there would be shouts of outrage? I don't like when people believe they are better than others, as some people on these boards clearly do. They are ruining the discussion with their stereotypes, and they shouldn't be excused for that. The hero worship that occurs of those with so skewed a viewpoint is disturbing.
