Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<ecdc - you could not have said what I feel any better.>> That's cool. If you remember I've argued long and hard from that point of view myself. For a long time I could not believe how people treated some of the hurricane victims like they brought it on themselves. Until I read an awful lot about it and found out that many of them did. And even if they didn't, their behavior during and after the disaster took away any sympathy I had. I'm not talking about ALL the residents of New Orleans. Just the really stupid ones. Just the ones who ended up in the Superdome. Just the ones who apparently didn't know what the hell it meant when they were told to evacuate the city. Those are the people I'm talking about. Those either to stupid to follow directions or so used to letting others do everything for them that they had NO CLUE about how to save themselves. Those who according to Darwin should have died. Is this harsh? Sure it is harsh. The people I’m talking about deserve harsh. I’m talking about people who looted from Wal-Mart during the hurricane. I’m talking about people who used government funds to gamble and buy whores. I’m talking about people who played on their victim status and had others build them new homes. Only to have them sell those homes, pocket the money, and return to whatever the government provided them in New Orleans. I’m talking about those from the Ninth Ward who will never return. Why? Because it might be difficult. It might take some work. While the rest of New Orleans has done heroic work to recover from the disaster the Ninth Ward remains much the same. Why? Because the former residents don’t care enough to work to restore their neighborhood. Unlike thousand and thousands of people in New Orleans, these people are waiting for someone from the government to show up with the keys to a new house and the money to assure they will never have to work. They never did before. Why should they now? I’m not talking about MOST of the citizens of New Orleans. I’m not talking about any specific race. As Mayor Nagin so wonderfully pointed out, New Orleans is chocolate city. The majority of the people in New Orleans are Black. Most of those people of color had a clue. They knew how to get out. They knew how to rebuild. They are the people who now depend on the Hispanic immigrants to help rebuild their homes and businesses. They are the people who suffer the most when the people I am talking about murder and steal. Do those who victimize the good people of New Orleans deserver any sympathy? No they do not. No matter what type of circumstances they came from; nothing justifies violence and crime. And as long as we pretend it does, we will never cure the cancer that smothers cities like New Orleans.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Hey, it's like 2:30AM in the mid-west - you need to get some rest, RT!>> Hey... it's the weekend. What is wrong with going to bed at 3:00 AM and getting up at 11:00 AM? I've never been a morning person. Why try?? Besides… I thought my post was pretty nicely though out. Somewhat emotional, but very fair. We need to make sure that those we want to help are truly helped by our actions. I’m not sure we liberals are always very cognizant of that.
Originally Posted By ecdc RT, I just have a few comments. First, you say that most people knew to get out, and that those that didn't brought this on themselves. This presupposes that those who stayed behind had a way out. Most did not. They don't know how to drive, they don't have the money to buy a bus ticket. Their whole lives have been spent living within a 20 mile radius in poverty stricken areas of New Orleans. That's where their family lives. They can't call Aunt Betty on the phone and say "Hey, we just swung by the Costco and bought some snacks and bottled water. We've got it loaded in the Highlander and with the traffic we'll be to your place in Memphis in about 8 hours." It doesn't work that way. Those that are poor that might have been fortunate enough to have a way out may have stayed behind due to distrust of the government. I'm not saying they made the right decision, but they've lived a life of being viewed suspiciously by those in authority, and they may have downplayed the significance of the threat (just like local government did until the last moment). I remember shortly after Katrina, some black people said that the government had bombed the levees. I thought that was an absolutely disgusting, outrageous claim. Then I read that the government did that very thing when a hurricane struck New Orleans in the 1930s. A calculated decision was made to sacrifice poor areas to save wealthy ones. We've come a long way, obviously, but the distrust is sometimes understandable. Finally, I don't think criminals should be taken lightly. Some might read my comments and feel that way. I just don't see the need to dwell on the criminal element all that much. To me, saying that criminals are wrong and should be punished is equivalent to saying you need to hold your breath underwater. It's a bit of an obvious point.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Hey... it's the weekend. What is wrong with going to bed at 3:00 AM and getting up at 11:00 AM? I've never been a morning person. Why try??<< I'm the same way. Most people who know me understand, but occasionally I get treated like I'm somehow deficient for my wacky schedule >>Besides… I thought my post was pretty nicely though out. Somewhat emotional, but very fair. We need to make sure that those we want to help are truly helped by our actions. I’m not sure we liberals are always very cognizant of that.<< I agree, and I hope you didn't take my post as a comment on your thoughts. It was just my way of saying "hi." See my post above for my real thoughts.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>True, there are lots of cities that keep electing liberals.<< Doug, is there any situation (even potentially), where you could see yourself viewing things in anything broader than pitch black and stark white? **Just the really stupid ones. Just the ones who ended up in the Superdome. Just the ones who apparently didn't know what the hell it meant when they were told to evacuate the city.** Without further information, I would hesitate to call all the people that evacuated to the superdome "really stupid". Perhaps desperate (no means to escape). Perhaps ill-informed (don't check the radio much, got caught off guard by the monster bearing down on the city). Perhaps overly-optimistic (all the hurricane calls in the past amounted to nothing, why shoud this be different?). Perhaps many things. BUT...I would not be such an ass as to call all those poor unfortunate folks "really stupid". I agree it wasn't the best place to be, but for some it was the only option for a variety of reasons. Reasons that perhaps you and I can't even comprehend (with our up to the minute internet updates, and not to mention having the internet, which means having a computer, which probably means having means, which probably means it would have been easy to evacuate...you can see the logic chain can't you?). A little sympathy goes a long way. And if you give hell to the victims of Katrina (and it's amazing that this is pretty much the first natural disaster in history where the general public places the "blame" squarely on the victims for not "knowing better"), you'd have to start giving hell to all the OTHER victims that should have known better. A slippery slope of blame that I'm sure NONE of us would care to traverse (I know I don't...I'm reasonably sure I can find a reason for ALL of us to change their lifestyles entirely based on "possible threats"...including evacuating all of New York City. Just my simplistic 2 cents, as always, but some people are FAR less compassionate than they should be...and for those people I hope you live a life without disaster, because it would be a damnd shame if a tornado were to rip through your home and kill your loved ones (because THEN you might feel some sympathy towards others, as you beg for help from anyone that is around to offer it).
Originally Posted By Mr X ******This presupposes that those who stayed behind had a way out. Most did not. They don't know how to drive, they don't have the money to buy a bus ticket. Their whole lives have been spent living within a 20 mile radius in poverty stricken areas of New Orleans. That's where their family lives. They can't call Aunt Betty on the phone and say "Hey, we just swung by the Costco and bought some snacks and bottled water. We've got it loaded in the Highlander and with the traffic we'll be to your place in Memphis in about 8 hours." It doesn't work that way.****** Everyone stand and appaud this statement...it is as true as true can be!!!!
Originally Posted By Mr X And don't only did some not have a license to drive as ecdc said, how would the holier that thou crowd propose they procure a vehicle? By stealing it?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Doug, is there any situation (even potentially), where you could see yourself viewing things in anything broader than pitch black and stark white?> I do it all the time.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I didn't think you could.> Read a little history. New Orleans has been essentially the most corrupt city in America since its founding. It transcends simple partisan politics. But "transcending simple partisan politics" continues to elude you as a concept.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <New Orleans has been essentially the most corrupt city in America since its founding.> And it elects liberals, overwhelmingly, and remains corrupt.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 No, it's you. The point is that New Orleans' corruption goes back to its founding, and carries through periods of conservative and liberal leadership. You'd like to make it another "liberals BAD, conservatives GOOD" example of your black and white worldview, but the reality (as usual) is different. Notice I'm not denying the corruption that has existed during periods of liberal leadership. The point is that corruption transcends partisan politics and can be found in all strains of American politics, not to mention the farthest right fascist regimes and the farthest left communist ones. But keep to your comfortable little black and white worldview - it's obviously comfy for you there.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh You can insult me and obfuscate all you want, but the truth is New Orleans elects liberals, overwhelmingly, and remains corrupt.
Originally Posted By Mr X Douglas, what is your opinion about what myself and ecdc wrote about the Katrina stuff (if you could possibly bring yourself to take your agenda "off message" for a moment).
Originally Posted By Mr X Douglas, what is your opinion about what myself and ecdc wrote about the Katrina stuff (if you could possibly bring yourself to take your agenda "off message" for a moment)?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Mr. X, you're presupposing Douglas wants to contribute anything of substance. He used to. But increasingly, it's just "no it isn't" and related nonsense. He can't even bring himself to admit the simple historical fact that New Orleans has had conservative leaders at various points in history, and has always been corrupt under both conservatives and liberals. Because that would disrupt his black and white worldview. And now you're expecting him to contribute something of substance?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Douglas, what is your opinion about what myself and ecdc wrote about the Katrina stuff (if you could possibly bring yourself to take your agenda "off message" for a moment).> I think ecdc made some decent points, when he wasn't pretending there isn't a middle ground between leaving the suburbs in your SUV for a week's vacation when a hurricane threatens and remaining behind to loot and pillage. It's fine to feel sympathy with the poor and downtrodden, but people often live down to expectations. If we make excuses for bad behavior, then some of the incentive not in indulge in bad behavior is lost. I'm all for helping people make their lives better, but I'm not real fond of helping people stay in misery.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <He used to. But increasingly, it's just "no it isn't" and related nonsense. He can't even bring himself to admit the simple historical fact that New Orleans has had conservative leaders at various points in history, and has always been corrupt under both conservatives and liberals. Because that would disrupt his black and white worldview.> Plese stop lying about me.
