Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Yes, there are a lot of people uninsured. But, with that I have to ask: why?<< Because it is prohibitively expensive for the average American income unless a person is in excellent health. You add in a few "pre-existing conditions" and the monthly rates go sky high real fast. Employer-paid health care has been going away right and left. And smaller employers, who employ a huge percentage of the workforce, can't afford to offer healthcare benefits in many cases. So we end up with what we have now -- an inefficient crazy-quilt where some people are fortunate and have insurance, some individuals pay through the nose to cover their families, while others must go without or visit the ER at taxpayer expense. And even those WITH coverage can find themselves dropped if they start getting seriously ill. >>Why can't other people do this?<< Some people can, others can't. It's not like the rates are some set fee that is entirely equal and everyone pays the same. When I had employer-sponsored health coverage, my co-pay was a fraction of what I paid when I had to get a policy on my own. I mean, the difference was staggering. And the only thing that had changed is that I went from being part of my employer's group coverage to getting even LESS coverage but paying way, way more (4 times more, to be exact) because I was an individual family. That just doesn't work.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan For example, I was paying $1 (one dollar) to visit a doctor on the company plan. On my own, I paid $50 for the same visit to the very same doctor, PLUS 4 times as much every single month, whether any of us went to the doctor or not.
Originally Posted By DAR The free market is not a fiasco. If you're going to have a free market you have to take the bad that comes with the good.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>The free market is not a fiasco. If you're going to have a free market you have to take the bad that comes with the good.<< The unchecked free market has been a fiasco. We're living with it right now. Financial markets, healthcare, air travel, auto industry. Name it - it's falling apart. I'm all for free market - so long as there's genuine competition. And you could also just as easily say: "Government is not a fiasco. If you're going to have a government you have to take the bad that comes with the good."
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The free market is not a fiasco. << It is a fiasco when market segments are monopolized by only a few key players. In health care, you are at the mercy of insurance giants that have stacked the deck in their favor. And this isn't some luxury item we're talking about -- it is essential healthcare coverage. If someone loses their job, should the penalty be that they now have no insurance protection at all? We can do better. We're a creative people. I know there is a solution that can achieve the goal of making healthcare coverage affordable for many more people than it currently is.
Originally Posted By DAR <<so long as there's genuine competition.>> And if healthcare goes universal will there be geniune competition? Let's get to your mail example. If I want to send a large package, I can use the USPS, UPS, Fed-Ex. That's fine. It's better that people have that alternative to the post office. But if I want to send a simple letter I can only use the USPS. Or I didn't like the service at the Department of Motor Vehicles, I can't go to the privately owned Department of Motor Vehicles. Ah but schools, that's good that we have the public and private institutions, because it creates schools trying to get the best students to come. Of course the teachers union tends to muck that up.
Originally Posted By dshyates Insurance based healthcare is idiotic. When profits increase in proportion to the LESS services they provide, its insanity. 80% of the money in healthcare goes to people who don't provide any care at all. Would you pay you car mechanic a monthly risidual even if he doesn't look at your car? And he loses profit if he does work on your car? What incentive does he have to actually fix your car? Sure you can look for a mechanic that does actually fix cars. But if the entire system is based on bigger profits for less work. Good luck in finding someone interested in fixing cars.
Originally Posted By ecdc But DAR, if competition is better, why is our healthcare system in such a poor state? Right now, we're doing what you're advocating, and it's not working. And right now, France, Britain, Sweden, Denmark and many, many others, are doing the government way. Guess what - there's works, ours doesn't. Until someone can get around those simple facts, all the "government screws everything up" slogans mean squat. We've tried it. It failed. Let's be clear: I'm not advocating socialism or communism, regardless of what right-wing nuts want you to believe. I am advocating for strong regulation and government oversight. History has been very clear on this, including recent history. Unchecked "free market" tramples people for profit. You bring up the DMV frequently. Sorry if the Wisconsin DMV sucks; the one here in Salt Lake is usually just fine. Short wait, not a big hassle. Again, this government-is-boogeyman is nonsense. It's who's running it that matters.
Originally Posted By DAR It'll be in a even poorer state if you have people coming in for every cough, scratch and bump they get.
Originally Posted By DAR I'll end the night on this. Everyone should get healthcare, whether or not everyone truly deserves it is another matter.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>It'll be in a even poorer state if you have people coming in for every cough, scratch and bump they get.<< Actually, that would be much better than the current system, where people wait until it's too late, then end up in the emergency room and have bills that they can't afford in the $100,000s. Guess who pays for that? Me and you.
Originally Posted By retlawfan I think the schools argument is a good one to compare to this one. If you want to send your child to private school you have that right. But, you have to pay twice. You must pay your taxes that pay for the public school system, and then you have to pay for the private school. IF (and it is a big IF) there remains public and private medical systems, those who end up wanting to remain in the private medical system will likely end up paying much more to do so. But, it may be possible.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'll end the night on this. Everyone should get healthcare, whether or not everyone truly deserves it is another matter.<< I'm not sure what you mean here. I think I agree, but only if I think I know what you mean
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>It'll be in a even poorer state if you have people coming in for every cough, scratch and bump they get.<< At first, i expect there would be a lot of that. But i also think with some education/public service message sorts of things, you could start to educate people about what things to go to a doctor about, and which things are not that serious. Part of the problem is that when we have these over-the-top media scares -- I'm looking at you, swine flu -- where there is this hysteria and you start getting everyone with a sniffle convinced they have contracted the latest pandemic illness. I don't know what to do about that, but that would certainly contribute to be overusing the medical system in a big way.
Originally Posted By Mr X I think he means that people have some measure of control over their health, usually (there are always the folks who were just unlucky enough to be born with a bad ticker or a hereditary condition or whatever). But that's an impossibly slippery slope to argue, realistically. What are you going to do, refuse to treat the heart attack victim because he/she is overweight and "brought it on themselves"? If so, do you also refuse to treat the heart attack victim who was an avid jogger and was jogging at the time and thus "brought it on themselves"?
Originally Posted By DAR <<At first, i expect there would be a lot of that. But i also think with some education/public service message sorts of things, you could start to educate people about what things to go to a doctor about, and which things are not that serious.>> <a href="http://whinesisters.com/images/uploads/eyebrowDwayne_Johnson.jpg" target="_blank">http://whinesisters.com/images...nson.jpg</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc >>She said she didn't hear it on FOX, but is on some e-mail list and received an e-mail about this happening. She's convinced it's going to happen.<< I think this is an important, albeit scary, issue. I have snopes.com bookmarked and I usually visit their "what's new" page every day or so. I haven't done any actual data crunching, but I've observed a definite uptick in the number of right-wing email rumors they're debunking. I used to get these all the time from my cousin and his wife - until I finally let them know that I believed in...you know...REALITY! Here's some samples. Not one of these emails is remotely true, and Snopes does a good job debunking them. But if the people sending them and reading them lack enough basic critical thinking skills to smell something fishy, then they certainly aren't bright enough to know about snopes or to do a Google search on this stuff. Make no mistake, this is how many conservatives are getting their news and forming their opinion about "Hussein" or "Barack Hussein Obama" as many emails invariably label him. <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/cemetery.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics...tery.asp</a> The ACLU is trying to have cross-shaped headstones removed from Federal property. Of course, the email mentions nothing about the Star of David or Muslim moon and stars. <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/termlimits.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics...mits.asp</a> Movement to repeal the 22nd Amendment to make Obama "President for life." This is the closest one to true - but it's presentation is still way off. Check out the link for more details. <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/swords.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics...ords.asp</a> Naval mid-shipment were required not to wear ceremonial swords because President Obama feared for his safety. <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/faithbased.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics...ased.asp</a> A new law prohibits those in the military from speaking at faith-based events. <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/memorial.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics...rial.asp</a> The WWII memorial excises the phrase "so help me God" from a Franklin Roosevelt speech. <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/taxreturns.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics...urns.asp</a> A bill requiring that all guns be registered with your tax return. <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/sharia.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics...aria.asp</a> Obama's STILL a Muslim (this is from May 2009, folks) <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/pirates.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics...ates.asp</a> Obama was indecisive about rescuing the ship captain from Somali pirates because he was worried about the pirates.
Originally Posted By ecdc I should mention, these are just the ones since May 2009. And to avoid the inevitable "well there's some for Bush too!" argument, here's some details. Obama, in just a couple of years since becoming a candidate and President, has logged 61 emails debunked on Snopes. Bush in 8 years as President logged 47. And it doesn't stop there - a good number of Bush's are positive. One says that Bush left a fundraiser to witness for Jesus to a teenage boy. And many of the more negative ones are just jokes. That holds true for Sarah Palin as well - there are negative ones, but they're obvious jokes, like a doctored photo of one of her children flipping the bird. Obama has no such positive rumors about him, or attacks on others - or if he does, I couldn't see it. There are a handful of jokes - mostly racist, however - but most of these are dead serious warnings that Obama's a Muslim, American-hating liberal, or he's shutting down religion, or taking away guns, or whatever. I think it's an absolute safe bet, if you analyze the serious email rumors listed on snopes, that this is almost exclusively a conservative phenomenon. No wonder these people hate Obama so much; if I believed half this stuff, I'd hate him too.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney This is true. But, these people are so brainwashed, they don't care about hearing the truth. I've told her about factcheck.org, but she has no desire to read what it says, calling it a liberal website. She already KNOWS the truth!
