Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Please, Dabob, what exactly were they trying for? The above descritpion is too vague.> They were attempting to create an actual resort area, which DL on its own had never been. A kind of "urban oasis," quite different from WDW. A place where you could come and stay for a few days and have little reason to wander off property.
Originally Posted By Park Hopper You statement implies they designed the expansion with the out-of-town guest in mind. What consideration did they give to the local guest, who at that time made up the majority of their customer base?
Originally Posted By Park Hopper You know what? Strike that. It's not even worth going over this ground again.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<I do not agree that the improvements made to DCA over the last six years are analagous to the changes made in other Disney theme parks. With the exception (I think) of Animal Kingdom, every domestic Disney theme Park has been forced to add attractions and lands due to immediate demand. DCA, on the other hand, has been tweaked and prodded from its first season, simply oin the basis that the crowds have stayed away.>> Thank you Dug, that was basically I was TRYING to say with one of my posts--you put it more effienciently then I certainly did . It's NOT the same and like I said DCA is trying to change its ENTIRE image of that park where as the other additions of other parks have mostly been just that--additions. Rather it was for better technology, better theming or just updated area's, whatever, they weren't trying to change the tone of an entire theme park. DCA 'renovations' are simply from a need to change public perception of the entire park, period. When they opened up the new TL at DL in '98, it wasn't to change people's perception of the place, it was to simply update it with the times and give it new life. With DCA, they are trying to find that park a loyal audience and now appease all the Disney fans they alienated from the first day it opened.....HUGE difference guys. <<People miss that DCA was never really meant as a stand-alone park.>> Then Disney shouldn't have been too surprised when people didn't want to pay the e-x-a-c-t same price as that 'stand-alone' park across the esplanade, should they??? I don't understand how Disney could be THIS stupid??? They been in this game a long time. What did they THINK was going to happen when they basically told everyone, "This park is not meant to compete with DL, its not going to have as many well defined attractions and you won't get the same experience that you been getting out of DL for 40+ years....but we still expect you to pay the same admission price and ask you not to complain too much about it." Seriously, what on God's green earth did they THINK people would assume when you tell them the new park will cost just as much as the old one?? On one hand you say, "Silly tourist, this park isn't meant to be as good as DL, whatever gave you that notion?" and then the next line is, "Ah no, same fare though. No, sorry, there are no coupons, AP's, park hoppers or resident discounts of any kind. That's right, this park is to 'compliment', heard of that stupid tourist? Same fare as DL, only half the magic...enjoy your day at Disney's California Adventure." LOL seriously, did they NOT see this biting them in the butt in a major, MAJOR way? Oh well. Those 2 park AP's are working fine now . And also, I don't think anyone really cares that DCA is a 'complentary' park, I doubt many care at all. They just want a GOOD park! Is that impossible to do both? I don't get it, it's either something grand as Epcot and TDS or it's 'complentary' holes like DCA and WDSP!! They can't do anything in the middle? Really, if Disney can't find a way to create more immersive, creative experiences with half day parks, don't bother! Just expand the popular park you have now. Just add an entire new land, build 2-3 new attractions there with a nice show to complement the area and raise the admission price by $7. That would do wonders instead of the money they put into DCA and WDSP. Wow, I admit, I DO miss talking about this topic. It HAS been too long . Off to bed now, nite kids!
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<People miss that DCA was never really meant as a stand-alone park.>> <Then Disney shouldn't have been too surprised when people didn't want to pay the e-x-a-c-t same price as that 'stand-alone' park across the esplanade, should they???> Pricing is another matter. If you price the second park less "officially," you're saying flat out it's not worth as much, which they could never do. "Officially" it has always cost about as much to go to Magic Mountain as DL too, but in reality it hasn't. They took this from WDW too - when MGM opened, for example, a one-day ticket was the same as the MK or EPCOT. (And since I was at a convention with only one free day, I chose to spend that one-day price on the new park I hadn't seen yet - the ONLY time I've ever felt vaguely ripped off by a Disney park). Disney followed the MGM model TOO closely for a second (not third) park in a place that wasn't a full resort yet, and also in the super-demanding SoCal market, which was used to having the greatest park in the world. It was a mistake to do it that way- but we've been through all this ad nauseum.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Then Disney shouldn't have been too surprised when people didn't want to pay the e-x-a-c-t same price as that 'stand-alone' park across the esplanade, should they???>> No they shouldn't have. And I don't care WHAT they do to improve it; the park will NEVER stand on its own. Disneyland Park is 85 acres California Adventure is 55 acres The park just is not large enough to compete on an equal basis with Disneyland.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt “I don't understand how Disney could be THIS stupid???†Several individuals here have a knack for dramatizing DCA’s problems to a level that seems completely outside of reality. I suppose that this is the crux of what I have been trying to say for several years now. This all goes back to the cries about DCA being “a carnival in the parking lotâ€, and “there are no bathrooms in the Hyperion†back before the place even opened. It was utter nonsense then and it still is today. Any investment is a risk, and regardless of what Disney had built, there was no guarantee that the project would have met the company’s expectations. It goes that way. Oh, and just because ticket media had to be tweaked during the first few months/years does not mean that the people who were running the place were idiots. On another note, no one can deny that the park did not meet Disney's stated attendance expectations from 2001. However, the claims that it is somehow a "failure" or "in trouble" because of this is nothing more than conjecture. Other than that near decade old attendance projection, no one here has ever presented a shred of solid evidence that clearly states what the company's measure is for the park's success or failure, or how those goals have changed since 2001.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>However, the claims that it is somehow a "failure" or "in trouble"... is nothing more than conjecture.<< Hmmm. Conjecture? Perhaps. But, with all due respect, conjecture based on fairly solid evidence. And mostly not conjecture at all. Bear in mind that this park was widely discussed before it ever opened, by the very designers and executives who would later receive the lion's share of the blame when it failed. I live down here in Southern California, and I made it a point to attend many presentations by the people who were aggressively "selling" Disney's California Adventure. What I found most troubling was the proud assertion that DCA would not be "just another Disney theme park." No, this was to be better, hipper, more cutting edge. And it was being designed by experts, with no room for the kind of error that had plagued theme park openings in the past. (Take that, Walt!) The merchandise team was absolutely giddy about the carefully plotted method by which they had determined exactly what items, and how many, were to be manufactured and placed in storage before the first guest walked through the door. They proudly asserted that there would NEVER be a shortage of merchandise in DCA. And what attraction did these geniuses identify as the one the public would enthusiastically wish to commemorate? Why, Superstar Limo, of course. There was an incredible array of Limo doodads, including shirts, hats, pins, picture frames, remote control cars, jewelry and sunglasses. Soarin' Over California, on the other hand, was represented by a shirt, a pin, and a child's propeller beanie. Pity that massive amounts of the DCA souvenirs of 2001 went through deep discount, liquidation sales, and outright giveaways before the sorry remanants were buried in landfill. (That, incidently, is not hyperbole.) The entertainment team was very proud of the fact that there would be no "Disneyland-style" entertainment in their park. Even the Disney characters were only reluctantly let in, under the pretense that they were "on vacation." No, the entertainment in DCA would be cutting edge examples of the best of California. The clear implication was that shows in Disneyland were for the unwashed masses; the smart people would be enjoying the obtuse offerings across the esplanade. And when the public shunned the odd collection of mimes, jugglers, and modern dance troupes (which I enjoyed, actually), the sudden rush to fill the vacuum with hastily contrived little character shows was oddly pathetic. (Remember Minnie Earhart? Mickey's Garden? Or, as God is my witness, Donald's Vision?) The traffic patterns and flow were given extensive study, resulting in the infamous "Entertainment Corridor," a vast, empty walkway that effectively cuts DCA into two sections. It did provide a nice, open area for pin collectors to dash from the entrance to whichever shop had that day's limited edition collectible pin. (Fun fact: the longest line on opening day was at Treasures in Paradise, where longsuffering pin collectors were repeatedly interviewed by baffled local media.) And how could anyone resist the world's largest glazed tile mural? A model farm with ACTUAL GROWING CROPS? Or the sight of nearby office buildings and hotels, looming over the not-so-fanciful stucco boxes of Paradise Pier? And then there's the restaurants. What can I say about that collection of high end eateries, all vying for an increasingly dwindling crowd? Enough to again point out that both Wolfgang Puck and Robert Mondavi took major hits, both financially and in prestige, to break their contracts. Unlike any other Disney theme park, past or present, there are now LESS places to eat in DCA then there were five years ago. So what was, at the end of the day, the problem? Oh I don't know. Maybe it had something to do with the concept of Show. That is supposed to be the guiding principle of Disney theme parks. That it's actually a "show," in which the guest is the star. But at DCA there just wasn't that much of a show, which soon became obvious to the "stars," who found themselves wandering down that big empty Entertainment Corridor, vainly searching for the entertainment among the shops and restaurants.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Frankly, I don't bother with any analysis as to what is wrong with DCA. As far as I'm concerned, the entire concept was doomed to failure. Under the best of circumstances, DCA could NOT compete with Disneyland. Sure, maybe after snorting a few lines upper management convinced themselves that it could. After all, it WAS the 80’s. But that had no basis in reality. DCA from the start was an MGM Studios style park. And could the Studios survive without the MK and Park Hoppers? No way!! We really enjoy DCA. We would not visit Disneyland without DCA, and when we are in Anaheim we spend more time in DCA than we spend in Disneyland Park. But would we EVER visit DCA if Disneyland was not across the street? Of course not!! But then would we ever visit MGM Studios if the MK and Epcot were not there? Nope. DCA is what it is. It is a very nice secondary park. It never will be anything more than that. Yes, I realize that some folks at Disney THOUGHT that it would be a destination park. They were wrong. It makes no sense to criticize DCA for not meeting initial expectations when the initial expectations, based on the performance of any other Disney park, were totally out of line.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster How could a second park (ANY second park) compare with the ultimate theme park, Disneyland? It's impossible. There is no theme park on earth with more to offer than the original Disneyland. None. A second gate should compliment Disneyland but not supplant it. Thus far, DCA (and DtD) have increased the number of visitors to the Disneyland Resort by quite a bit. Hotel occupancy has also increased exponentially. BUT... DCA still needs to shake off some of the serious design flaws which it was saddled with by some overly conservative executives who conceived it. I think the entire issue will work itself out by the team in place to improve the park. DCA has a lot of potential that DL simply doesn't have such as expansion space, fine dining with wine, alcohol service, and freedom from tradition. I don't believe there will ever be a theme park better than Disneyland but I believe that DCA will eventially become a worthy companion.
Originally Posted By disneysnout DCA may never be as good as DL but come on, it can be an Amazing Park with great attractions if Disney would get there act straight
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "But, with all due respect, conjecture based on fairly solid evidence." You and I have never seen anything solid from Disney stating that the park is a failure, in big trouble, that it's losing money, repeatedly missed financial goals, or otherwise. Since you do not know what Disney's measure for success was or is for the place you are simply guessing like everyone else has since 2001. The same goes for the article that Darkbeer posted at the start of this thread.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<How could a second park (ANY second park) compare with the ultimate theme park, Disneyland? It's impossible.>> Take it from someone who been. Tokyo DisneySea may not be as great, but TRUST me, it comes pretty close ;D. NOT suggesting they should've built TDS there. Frankly, besides the money issues, Eisner and Co. would've screwed it up anyway . But c'mon, that's a cop out, so, just because they can't come up with a design and concept at DL, just don't bother to make anything decent??? I know that's probably not what you're saying, but really, they have built other non MK parks and while not as great as the MK, they are GOOD at least. DCA was just a cheap money maker they could get in as fast as possible. They didn't try, at least not as much as they should and it shows as you well know.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>You and I have never seen anything solid from Disney stating that the park is a failure, in big trouble, that it's losing money, repeatedly missed financial goals, or otherwise.<< Nor do I ever expect to see Disney make a plain statement about DCA's obvious failure. But, as I said before, it is conjecture based on facts that leads one to that inescapable conclusion. FACT: Just before DCA opened, sales of two-park annual passes were suspended, because of fears that APs would crowd out paying guests. After a few months, sales of the two-park APs were quietly reintroduced. Since that time any number of enticements have been used in a vain attempt to increase the numbers. FACT: Massive amounts of merchandise were ordered in anticipation of large crowds and enthusiastic acceptance of DCA's offerings. This merchandise was later removed from the park, deeply discounted, and finally written off as loss. FACT: DCA was laid out using calculated traffic control standards, on the assumption that the smaller area would need to absorb larger crowds. The crowds failed to materialize, leading many to observe that DCA continually looks abandoned. (In other words, even a good sized crowd looks lost in the place.) FACT: DCA had a high ratio of restaurants to attractions, in the belief that the crowds attracted would appreciate fine dining over standard theme park fare. Several of these restaurants have since been shuttered, in some cases not even to be replaced. (Hollywood and Dine, Soap Opera Bistro, MalibuRitas, for examples.) FACT: DCA's attendance figures have coinsistently risen and fallen with those of Disneyland. DCA is not driving attendance. True, we do not have access to the kinds of facts and figures that the company keeps to themselves. And so it is all conjecture. But I have never been willing to simply throw bricks and walk away. Nor am I willing to say that, barring an actual press release from the Walt Disney Company, that a credible case cannot be made that DCA has been a failure.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney “I don't understand how Disney could be THIS stupid???†<<Several individuals here have a knack for dramatizing DCA’s problems to a level that seems completely outside of reality. I suppose that this is the crux of what I have been trying to say for several years now.>> LOL, I guess those 'several individuals' will include me . Let's face it, the park IS a failure at this point. You don't keep pumping millions on top of millions into something that was never planned to have these kinds of additions from day one unless SOMETHING is wrong?? Again, I THOUGHT everyone pretty much knew this by now and hence why I stopped posting. It seems to be pretty accepted by people INSIDE and out of the company DCA is a problem park, has been from day 1. But again, it's odd to me someone can keep saying DCA is doing 'swell' when they can't even entice people into the park without park hoppers and AP's 6 YEARS ON!!! A poster actually told me, don't want to say his name, but its NOT Darkbeer, that DCA sells only a few HUNDRED 1 day passes a day!!! That's pretty scary in my book . I was shocked when he told me that and not even sure if it's true, but this guy knows his stuff, very trustworthy and I'm out of the loop with most DCA stuff these days, but if true, WOW!!! I'm sure DL has no problem selling thousands even with all the APers and Park hoppers. But even if DCA gets a meager 10,000 people a day, the fact only 2-300 bothered to spend for a 1 day pass says a lot in SPADES . And again, how 'outside of reality' am I? Yes, how STUPID was Disney to build this park?? Look at every silly move they made with it? They started by putting a guy in charge who had NO theme park building experience whatsoever, with a merchandise background out of things which is why we got a scary high ratio of well themed stores vs less immersive rides in a THEME park. Then, they built a park that had a tone which alienated the majority of the people who goes to DL to experience what, FANTASY and INNOVATION, never mind the theme itself where it pretty much kills any excitment for most Californians in the first place, the MAJORITY who goes to DL now. On top of all that, they throw in rides that can be visited all over the area...about 10 minutes away for some and that can be seen for CHEAPER on top of that. When you think that 80%, yes, 80% of those attractions are either in KBF and MM, not to mention all the other theme parks and carnivals in Cali, exactly what were they thinking that was going to get the Disney fans excited about it? OR how could you convince the non-Disney fans they were mostly aiming for to pay premium prices for basically the same rides they get at other places, but not as extreme or good? Again, I have to wonder how 'out of reality' were the morons who thought this park would actually be something most people wanted to see lol. To top it all off, instead of giving people a chance to see it withOUT charging them the same fare as DL, which is utter ridiculous, YES, same as WDW, but WDW has PARK HOPPERS!!!! These morons actually thought this park was so great, people would naturally pony up the money for a park that has less to do than KBF, but cost more to do it in. KBF only gets 3-4 million with a cheaper ticket and certainly more attractions. But these morons DCA would pull TWICE that much?? Why, because it's close to DL, that's why. But, I guess they figured on the Disney sheep mentality . No one bit and less than 2 months later there were Park Hoppers in place. Hell, there is a one day park hopper now lol. Three days before the park opened to the public, a ticket CM told me not only were they not going to do Park Hoppers or AP's for average guests because Disney felt 'it wasn't neccesary', they were thinking about just giving the park separate AP's 'maybe a year or so down the line' when this park has had a rush of alll those guests tearing down the park's gates waiting to see. Yeah, well, that worked out. Throw on the fact that MOST of us were shouting about these problems on these boards a year BEFORE the park opened, Disney just thought it had a 'hit' on their hands and now all those morons are gone thankfully and we have a set of people who at least ACKNOWLEDGE DCA 'a challenge' is a blessing at least. They didn't build the park, there are no ego's to soothe as before. Too bad it didn't happen sooner. So yeah, I'm waaaay out of reality here lol. The fact it's six years later and you guys are STILL talking about it only proves DCA is far, far from a sucess. No one is arguing if the Ipod product is having issues. But I can't go anywhere (on the boards...not in Asia lol) without a minor group of people defending DCA or Iraq at this point lol (it's REALLY eerie how you can compare the two and the perceptions out there, ain't it? I'm waiting for McCain to stop in DCA and declare how 'busy' it is and so much to do!! DCA is only BUSY McCain because they have to support your entire military entourage ;D). Also, I AGREE that every thing is a risk taker and they have to make certain choices, NO arguments there. I'm just AMAZED how out of touch (or out of reality--I like that, I'm going to keep using it now ) that they could make some of the most illconcieved, illadvised and totally inept decisions on building a Disney theme park, something they been building for 40 years and had many other parks on what to do RIGHT!!! But, when you have the budget that James Cameron would just laugh at and put a guy in charge that went to work for GAP, something is really, really wrong. Man, Disney is MORE stupid than I realized now that I rehashed all of that ;D.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney >>However, the claims that it is somehow a "failure" or "in trouble"... is nothing more than conjecture.<< <<Hmmm. Conjecture? Perhaps. But, with all due respect, conjecture based on fairly solid evidence. And mostly not conjecture at all. Bear in mind that this park was widely discussed before it ever opened, by the very designers and executives who would later receive the lion's share of the blame when it failed. I live down here in Southern California, and I made it a point to attend many presentations by the people who were aggressively "selling" Disney's California Adventure. What I found most troubling was the proud assertion that DCA would not be "just another Disney theme park." No, this was to be better, hipper, more cutting edge. And it was being designed by experts, with no room for the kind of error that had plagued theme park openings in the past. (Take that, Walt!) The merchandise team was absolutely giddy about the carefully plotted method by which they had determined exactly what items, and how many, were to be manufactured and placed in storage before the first guest walked through the door. They proudly asserted that there would NEVER be a shortage of merchandise in DCA. And what attraction did these geniuses identify as the one the public would enthusiastically wish to commemorate? Why, Superstar Limo, of course. There was an incredible array of Limo doodads, including shirts, hats, pins, picture frames, remote control cars, jewelry and sunglasses. Soarin' Over California, on the other hand, was represented by a shirt, a pin, and a child's propeller beanie. Pity that massive amounts of the DCA souvenirs of 2001 went through deep discount, liquidation sales, and outright giveaways before the sorry remanants were buried in landfill. (That, incidently, is not hyperbole.) The entertainment team was very proud of the fact that there would be no "Disneyland-style" entertainment in their park. Even the Disney characters were only reluctantly let in, under the pretense that they were "on vacation." No, the entertainment in DCA would be cutting edge examples of the best of California. The clear implication was that shows in Disneyland were for the unwashed masses; the smart people would be enjoying the obtuse offerings across the esplanade. And when the public shunned the odd collection of mimes, jugglers, and modern dance troupes (which I enjoyed, actually), the sudden rush to fill the vacuum with hastily contrived little character shows was oddly pathetic. (Remember Minnie Earhart? Mickey's Garden? Or, as God is my witness, Donald's Vision?) The traffic patterns and flow were given extensive study, resulting in the infamous "Entertainment Corridor," a vast, empty walkway that effectively cuts DCA into two sections. It did provide a nice, open area for pin collectors to dash from the entrance to whichever shop had that day's limited edition collectible pin. (Fun fact: the longest line on opening day was at Treasures in Paradise, where longsuffering pin collectors were repeatedly interviewed by baffled local media.) And how could anyone resist the world's largest glazed tile mural? A model farm with ACTUAL GROWING CROPS? Or the sight of nearby office buildings and hotels, looming over the not-so-fanciful stucco boxes of Paradise Pier? And then there's the restaurants. What can I say about that collection of high end eateries, all vying for an increasingly dwindling crowd? Enough to again point out that both Wolfgang Puck and Robert Mondavi took major hits, both financially and in prestige, to break their contracts. Unlike any other Disney theme park, past or present, there are now LESS places to eat in DCA then there were five years ago. So what was, at the end of the day, the problem? Oh I don't know. Maybe it had something to do with the concept of Show. That is supposed to be the guiding principle of Disney theme parks. That it's actually a "show," in which the guest is the star. But at DCA there just wasn't that much of a show, which soon became obvious to the "stars," who found themselves wandering down that big empty Entertainment Corridor, vainly searching for the entertainment among the shops and restaurants.>> Once again Dug, you beat me to the punch and said it MUCH better than I ever could ;D. I'm off my game though, I haven't done this with DCA for awhile now, but its funnnn being back at the moment .
Originally Posted By WorldDisney I also have to agree with Roadtrip, it would've been hard for any 2nd gate to truly truly suceed, but all the roadblocks DCA was given before it opened, it NEVER even had a chance and that is what is so sad about it. And again, the word 'modesty' wasn't exactly in their Disney-speak vocabulary when talking about this park and how it was just going to be this massive massive sucess, which I think is where SO much of the spite comes from (and why it's so easy for some of us to CONTINUALLY throw it back in their faces---not the posters here, we're just a dysfunctional family, I'm talking the morons who built the park ). They HONESTLY thought this was going to be the new wave of Disney theme park experiences....a park that can give you Wolfgang Puck and a bumble bee swing ride in the same area. LOL, missed on BOTH accounts. What were they THINKING??? Maybe now that the park is doing so much 'better', someone should call Wolfgang and invite him back. I'm sure he can't wait to get back to the new and improved DCA. He's not picking up the phone? Figures ;D
Originally Posted By disneysnout Great Points World of Disney can you copy and post this and send it to the Disney folks so they can get on the ball
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt Dldug, your examples are good ones, however, in my opinion they address the single issue that we can all agree on, and that is that attendance has not met the original expectations. However, one cannot conclude from this evidence that the park is an absolute failure or that these examples are the same measures that Disney uses to determine park’s overall performance. By the way, DCA’s attendance has not always risen and fallen with DL’s. There was at least one year when DCA had increases when other US parks were either declining or flat. “Let's face it, the park IS a failure at this point. You don't keep pumping millions on top of millions into something that was never planned to have these kinds of additions from day one unless SOMETHING is wrong??†No one can argue that the park has not drawn the numbers that were originally estimated (though some here with inside information have claimed that DCA did indeed break the 7 million mark in 2006), so again, I do agree that on that point the park appears to have failed. Other than that, constantly repeating that the place is a failure without any real data from Disney to back such claims is meaningless. For all we know the place is making a ton of money, maybe not what was expected, but performing well enough to justify further investment. Arguing that DCA must be doing poorly because Disney is revamping areas and adding attractions is illogical. The company has poured millions of dollars into all its parks from day one, including Disneyland. Does that mean it is a failure too?
