Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I think it's, frankly, insulting to the people dying in this war to keep trotting out those ancient talking points in 2007. Thet "one item" was what sold this war, and it's why were were told we would be risking the lives of young men and women in Iraq. That's a major screw up. And I'm using that term because the REAL name for it would get admin'd.
Originally Posted By DAR <<The biggie. The one that damaged our credibility and reputation aroound the world. The one that made it so important to go to war. I guess you'd just say "oops" but to most of us, that matters a lot.>> This might sound blunt, but who cares what are standing in the world is. I'll bet the average American doesn't give a rip as to what other countries think of us. It's naive to think we're perfect, but we're like anyother dysfunctional family. Ultimately we all want the same things.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <The one that damaged our credibility and reputation aroound the world. The one that made it so important to go to war.> That's your opinion. It doesn't make my statement incorrect. <I guess you'd just say "oops" but to most of us, that matters a lot.> It matters to me, and I think we needed to do even more house cleaning at the CIA then we did. However, that still doesn't make your statement correct, and mine incorrect.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I think it's, frankly, insulting to the people dying in this war to keep trotting out those ancient talking points in 2007.> I think it's more insulting to those people to keep saying the same anti-war talking points over and over, when they've been shown repeatedly to be incorrect.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I'll bet the average American doesn't give a rip as to what other countries think of us.<< If they don't, they are naive. Our leaders should be smart enough to know better. >>It matters to me, and I think we needed to do even more house cleaning at the CIA then we did.<< I'm glad it matters to you. I think the housecleaning should start at the top, where the buck is suppossed to stop.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I think the housecleaning should start at the top, where the buck is suppossed to stop.> If we had removed every President for every mistake made under their watch, there'd be up about 215 figures in the Hall of Presidents, instead of 42.
Originally Posted By DAR Getting back to the previous arguments about the "Democrats great Republicans bad" or vice versa depending on your argument I'll just say this. The Presidents ratings in the 29-32% range. Congress in the 16-26% range. That doesn't show that the President is doing a better job, it just shows that both parties in no way are looking out for any of us. Libertarian party make some room on that bus.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan That's your opinion.<< No, it's really not an opinion. What happened was this administration as well as most people in the Democratic party believed flawed intelligence, and we went to war on false pretenses. That's called incompetance in most places, except government. In government, both sides point fingers at the other, both claiming it wasn't THEIR fault. If any of these folks had any sense of decency, they'd resign in shame for going along with this war in the first place. But they don't. And just because they don't that doesn't mean the rest of us should simply forgive and forget. We must learn from Iraq -- the major lesson being you'd damn well better KNOW the truth and not start a war on a hunch or what some war hawks see as a "slam dunk". Otherwise, we'll go through this painful, dreadful, costly, exercise again some day in the name of protecting the homeland.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh That's still your opinion., and it still doesn't make your statement correct, and mine incorrect.
Originally Posted By DAR Let's just save some time and say this argument will continue for the next ten pages.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "That's still your opinion., and it still doesn't make your statement correct, and mine incorrect." The last several years have proven you wrong. There's simply no defending this Administration's conduct of the war anymore, and it's criminal for anyone to do so. That's how much this war has permeated the conscience of most of this country. And remember, this is entirely separate than defending the troops themselves, the ones Bush continues to send to slaughter every day. As I sat and watched us invade Iraq in 2003, I kept saying to myself "Bush better know what he's doing." It's been obvious for some time now he didn't have a freaking clue. Enough is enough.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I think so, too. See, I'm not a knee jerk anything. I thought us invading iraq in the first place was a good idea, given that they were building WMD, and were involved terrorism. They were not. Furthermore, we had zero planning for what we were to do once we took over. So, I've changed my thoughts on the subject. Beyond that, Congress is spending time on stuff like this offensive behavior, while the problems you mention go unchecked and unattended to. Talk about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic< I couldn't agree more with this statement - except I do believe there was a plan, it was just very ill conceived and did not come close to working. And as for a backup plan - well it appears that did not exist and is being made up on the fly - and not well either.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I couldn't agree more with this statement - except I do believe there was a plan, it was just very ill conceived and did not come close to working. And as for a backup plan - well it appears that did not exist and is being made up on the fly - and not well either." Well, like I've said. If what we've seen transpire was the result of some plan, they're better off saying they never had one to start with,
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Knd of like the Chicago Bears offensive coordinator and his scheme so far this year
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Boy, no kidding. I've been a Grossman backer, but the boy has to sit. They haven't kept Brian Griese around for nothing. Heck, even Kyle Orton would be better, and that's no joke.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder BTW. I'm gonna be in Chicago, getting there 10/9 and leaving 10/15. My wife is attending a conference and I'm tagging along. Some Sheraton near Navy Pier for the first three days, then the Ambassador East. Hopefully the Cubs are still playing, because I'm bringing the credit cards.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Ah the ambassador East - home of the four diamond Pump Room restaurant -mmmmmm - retro splendor on the Gold Coast ! btw- dining scene ( "how much for your women" ) with Belushi and Ackroyd in Blues Brothers filmed there. If the Cubs keep hitting the way they are the last month ( especially 2 weeks) they will be playing !
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder They filmed that at the Pump Room? Really? I'll have to watch that again. Last time I was at the Pump Room was 2004. You learn something new every day.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Actually I was mixing my restaurants - Chez Paul ( nearby was where the scene was filmed. Ambassador East hosted my senior prom 100 years ago --LOL !
Originally Posted By ecdc <a href="http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/09/26/bill-clinton-slams-smearing-republicans/" target="_blank">http://politicalticker.blogs.c nn.com/2007/09/26/bill-clinton-slams-smearing-republicans/</a> This is a link to what Bill Clinton had to say about the Patraeus ad. He said it all quite well, actually. >>WASHINGTON (CNN) — Former President Bill Clinton blasted Republicans Wednesday for their recent uproar over a MoveOn.org newspaper ad questioning Gen. David Petraeus' credibility, telling CNN's Anderson Cooper their "feigned outrage" was completely "disingenuous." "This was classic bait and switch — focus on that as opposed to focusing on what's happened," the former president said. Clinton also highlighted a string of past questionable campaign commercials targeting Democrats, and suggested Republicans are acting hypocritically. "These are the people that ran a television ad in Georgia with [former Sen.] Max Cleland — who lost half his body in Vietnam — in the same ad with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. That's what the Republicans did," he continued. "And the person that rode to the senate on that ad was there voting to condemn the democrats over the Petraeus ad. "I mean, these are the people that funded the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. And the president appointed one of the principal founders of the Swift Boat ads to be an ambassador," Clinton added. "But they're really upset about Petraeus. But it was okay to question [Massachusetts Sen.] John Kerry's patriotism on a blatantly dishonest play that had dishonest claims by people that didn't know what they were talking about."<<
