Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Actually, not Liberty Street. I would rather they install the Arcades like at Disneyland Paris. This way they would have a much better guest flow and exit strategy after the fireworks. It would be a nice, cool place to be during the summer, and also could be a place they install Lincoln, or at least pay tribute to him.
Originally Posted By SIR at X-S Tech I'd love to see the arcades for the sake of Guest flow and anything that is "new Main St" excites me, but I don't see them using it as a showcase for Lincoln. The only real vignette at DLP's arcades is the Statue of Liberty thing, which is an extremelyl simple static display. There are some lighting effects, but I'm sure the reason it still exists is because it's virtually maintanence free. Lincoln even after 40+ years is a big deal, and requires more than 3 or 4 people viewing him at a time to justify the maintenance and upkeep. Not my opinion as much as it's just the way Disney operates. Of course, now I've gone and done what I hate, which is assuming when you mentioned DLP's arcades, that you meant it literally, when in fact, they could use the arcades simply as a venue for whatever size Lincoln theater they need. Nothing says Lincolns new location couldn't be bigger than the statue of liberty vignette.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Disneyland's earlier history featured a lot of jingoistic patriotism and flag waving, but I think it's a wise choice for them to be steering away from that sort of display going forward. These days, that kind of over the top "in your face" display of national fervor is usually reserved for conservatives, and is divisive not only among americans, but also among the resort's increasingly diverse and international customer base.
Originally Posted By wangaroa Wow, anyone else getting stigmata from gadzuux lot? On the other hand, I agree. I hate going into places like Olvera Street and having the national flag of, like, Mexico or whatever thrust into my face. And one time, I was in Canada's Wonderland, and they had, like, all these friggin' flags with little leaves and, like, the Baby Jesus on them. Disney: stay out of my bedroom.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I'm not sure how serious your comment is, but with disneyland it was a bit more than just waving a flag. Remember the bicentennial in 1976? They went plum crazy with the red white and blue, the eagles, the souza marches - it was uber-patriotism. That was a different time though, and sense then the world has changed and evolved. If they were to try something on that scale today it would be seen as divisive, pro-war, pro-bush, and maybe even insensitive to muslims. Disney isn't in the business of generating controversy. Better they stick with mickey and donald and the gang, and leave the patriotic extravaganzas for political rallies and sam the muppet eagle.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Remember the bicentennial in 1976? They went plum crazy with the red white and blue, the eagles, the souza marches - it was uber-patriotism. << That wasn't limited to Disneyland, the whole country caught Bicentennial Fever. But I think the idea that something patriotic is "divisive" is incorrect. That said, I agree that it's time for something all new in the Main Street Opera House. The park isn't a museum, and the offerings need to be updated and refreshed more often than they are.
Originally Posted By walt01 Hi everyone. Updating is fine, but given the past conduct of the park..( i.e under pressler) the opera house would be turned into a pin trading spot.. and call me crazy, but I think we have enough of those at the present. As to Disneyland being jigositic, well perhaps at times, but that misses the point with Mr. Lincoln. The show, at least in its original incarnation, was saluting the man who saved the United States. If not for our 16th President, we would be two countries not one. And while it's true that too much flag waving can be a bad thing, teaching Americans about their history isn't. I remember going to Disneyland after September 11th, and heading straight to Mr. Lincoln. Even if the new show was flawed, it was still a reminder of what great people this country has produced. Mr lincoln should stay for that reason. If they want to move it to Frontierland, then so be it. But I still think that updating it (as was mentioned ala, Ken Burns' Civil war) would be a great thing. Walt always knew that whatever the subject, you had to move people- not only to entertain them, but inspire as well. And personally, on the 4th of July, I can't think of a better place to be than Disneyland. For good bad or otherwise, it is America...Thanks for Listening...Walt 100
Originally Posted By DlandJB These days, that kind of over the top "in your face" display of national fervor is usually reserved for conservatives, and is divisive not only among americans, but also among the resort's increasingly diverse and international customer base. >>> Wow, I couldn't disagree with you more. In fact, I take real issue with the idea that signs of patriotism belong to one or another political party. No party has the right to co-op Sousa or any other sign that we should be proud to be Americans. Even the fact that you have the right to post that opinion at all about it is a celebration of what makes the country great. I've been recently studying the need to return Civics education to the classroom -- meaning that we return meaning to these symbols - that we actually teach our kids that the grand experiment of representative democracy is really something very unique in world history and why voting is important, why civil debate is important and why responsible dissent is not only important but vital to the future of representative democracy. America is a lot more than whoever happens to be running the country at the moment and the Lincoln experience is a reminder of that. I hope that they do bring it back in some form. Sorry to get a little over the top about this, but I hate the idea that caring about the symbols of the country is somehow a definition of one political party over another.
Originally Posted By SIR at X-S Tech <<These days, that kind of over the top "in your face" display of national fervor is usually reserved for conservatives>> ...and badmouthing the country as a whole because you disagree with the current head of government is usually reserved for liberals.
Originally Posted By SIR at X-S Tech <<...and is divisive not only among americans, but also among the resort's increasingly diverse and international customer base>> Yes, we might offend somebody so let's not do it. You should never do anything that any group may find offensive. When you went to Olvera street and were inundated with Mexican flags, did you do anything about it or did you feel that you were being too "judgemental"
Originally Posted By DlandJB That's too cliche' as well. Careful or the whole thread will get swept away into WE.
Originally Posted By SIR at X-S Tech <<... and is divisive not only among americans, but also among the resort's increasingly diverse and international customer base>> How is celebrating our shared heritage divisive? You may be right, in that some feel divided by a patriotic display. Nobody can feel included all the time. However I would say that this sort of display unites as many if not more people than it divides.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Maybe they could dress ole Abe as a pirate and put him on the Island somewhere. Maybe in one of the caves.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "Of course, now I've gone and done what I hate, which is assuming when you mentioned DLP's arcades, that you meant it literally, when in fact, they could use the arcades simply as a venue for whatever size Lincoln theater they need. Nothing says Lincolns new location couldn't be bigger than the statue of liberty vignette." You're correct there. I didn't mean an exact copy, but they could add a theater to the arcades for Lincoln that would be smaller than the Opera House, but big enough for a small crowd. Oh, and as for the patriotism in the parks thing. I hope this thread can stay away from getting too politicized, because it shouldn't have to go to World Events. That said, I think there's plenty of room for Americana at the parks. I agree with DlandJB on this, in that patriotism doesn't belong to one party. It's something we should all get behind. That does not mean we have to blindly support things we don't agree with, but why can't we have a sense of national pride at the same time? Anyway, I'd hate to see Lincoln totally disappear from Disneyland, but agree that the Opera House it too much space for him now, and the last incarnation of the show didn't have as much spirit as the previous ones.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Disneyland's earlier history featured a lot of jingoistic patriotism and flag waving, but I think it's a wise choice for them to be steering away from that sort of display going forward.>> WDW doesn't seem to have many problems having The American Adventure and The Hall of Presidents. Sure, occasionally someone will write something negative, but these shows still attract healthy crowds.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The American Adventure still does, but I haven't seen a crowd in the Hall of Presidents in YEARS. Now granted, my trips to WDW aren't that frequent, but they could be considered "random samples" of the past 20 years, say, and I've never even seen that theatre half full. I think it's less to do with patriotism or anything like that, and more to do with a fairly static show with AA's not being the "wow" it used to be. The American Adventure is a much more involved show.
Originally Posted By monorailblue <<Like it or not, Lincoln is about politics and L.A. isn't exactly Kansas.>> Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln isn't about politics at all--it's about a great man and stateman and his part in saving the country. And, add to the "offensive" list the fact that all Disneyland visitors must enter and exit through "Main Street U.S.A." What in insult to those who dislike our country. I suggest "Main Street Everyland Or No-land" as an acceptable alternative. (No-land is needed for visiting Laps who do not have an actual country of their own.)
Originally Posted By teddibubbles My DEEPLY felt opinion! wether or not! it is believed in by others! First off. I would like to add the OLD statement. Walt Disney said" Mr Lincoln was to have a permanent home on main street." Now My thoughts on your statements and the OLD Mr Lincoln Show. ( didn't like the last one at all!) I have all ways been a DEEP feeling person. Growing up. I took the Words To heart on what ((( I ))) was to BE inside! as a American. to believe in this LOVE of LIBERTY . and that it WAS to be a United Consensus set down by our fore fathers. of what we were to stand for as Americans. Some times I believe. people have more esteem at diverseness and OTHER cultures. then that of being a united people called Americans. and that it is considered rude or making waves. to fallow the past beliefs or to be so BOLD to SHOW of what WE Feel or BELIEVE is contrary to the flow of a increasingly more moral less society. In saying we HAVE Freedom to do as WE want bad wrong or selfishly! we mock at the very foundation .and the good clean standards of the rules and >> GOD FEARING truths << set down to lead us to the right road. by our fore fathers. SO MANY TIMES! I have stood up for my deep beliefs. over a OVER WELL MING opinionated! I have had the rug torn out from under my very patriotic feet. by what is turmed our now government. now I sit in stuned silence and disillusion as to it resembling ANYTHING like what our fore fathers believed in. I know as far as that old Mr Lincoln Ride. it moved me to tears for so many years. RENEWING my love for country!... maybe people WANT a new play ride. or what ever! boring as it may BE to them. I only KNOW. DEEP inside me. we NEED to be TOLD / REMINDED. of that Wonderful DREAM of What we are SUPPOSE to be as a Country!.. AND the words he spoke are TIMELESS! ____________________________ This is VERY profound! and needed as a reminder to a lost and guide lees people! _________________________________________ This is the speech that Mr. Lincoln gave during the show at both the 1964-1965 New York World's Fair and during the 1965, 1975, and 1984 versions of the show at Disneyland. "The world has never had a good definition of the word "liberty". The American people, just now, are much in want of one. We all declare for liberty. But in using the same word, we do not all mean the same thing. "What constitutes the bulwark of our liberty and independence? It is not our frowning embattlements, our bristling sea coasts. These are not our reliance against tyranny. Our reliance is in the love of liberty, which God has planted in our bosoms. Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands everywhere. Destroy this spirit, and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors. "At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some trans-Atlantic military giant to step the ocean and crush us in a blow? Never. All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined could not, by force, take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years. At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? "I answer that if it ever reach us, it must spring from amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we ourselves must be the authors and finishers. As a nation of free men, we must live through all times, or die by suicide. "Let reverence for the law be breathed by every American mother to the listing babe that prattles on her lap. Let it be taught in the schools, in the seminaries, and in the colleges. Let it be written in primers, in spelling books and almanacs. Let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And in short, let it become the political religion of the nation. And let the old and the young, the rich and the poor, the grave and the gay, of all sexes, and tongues, and colors, and conditions, sacrifice unceasingly at its altar. "And let us strive to deserve, as far as mortals may, the continued care of Divine Providence, trusting that, in future national emergencies, He will not fail to provide us the instruments of safety and security. Neither let us be slandered from our duty by false accusations against us, or frightened from it by menaces of the destruction to the government, nor of dungeons to ourselves. Let us have faith that right makes might. And in that faith, let us to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains I think President Lincoln should be put back in honor of Mr Disney. It seems to me Disneyland was started with a mouse here in America. I believe Mr Disney had his dream that all Americans would come to this great place and enjoy all he helped create. I do also believe once he realized how big his dream was to become he came up with DisneyWorld to bring all nations together and honor them. I am happy that his dream has spread across the world and other countries love DL as much as we do, but would you expect Paris DL to forget about their patriotism and only worry about offending others and there feelings. DL is a place we can celebrate America on Main St USA, go back in history and listen to one of our finest Presidents speak, find old friends in fronteirland, and find our own adventures anywhere else in the park.
