Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<101 Dalmatians.>> Honestly, I don't find 101 Dalmatians to be that hyped within the company. Cruella de Vil maybe, but not the movie as a whole. That being said, I understand why somebody might find the movie overwhelming. While visually stunning and quite cute it really is an overblown cartoon. Not that it's such a bad thing, but it has about as much plot as a five minute short. Evil chick steals puppies, puppies escape, puppies return. The beginning is really the most fun, with Pongo trying to find his master a mate. Unfortunately that plotline gets settled far too quickly for my tastes, as it's much more interesting than the standard escape/road trip storyline. Story aside though, 101 Dalmatians to me is very charming and certainly not in the lower ranks of Disney animated features.
Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<The Lion King.>> I would agree. Not because I think the movie is not good, in fact I think it's very good. It's just the movie is very hyped within the company to the detrement of many other deserving films. Of course, the movie still has the highest overseas gross of the Disney animated films by a HUGE margin. It also has some killer music. In my opinion, Nemo is approaching Lion King saturation and I hope we've seen the end of it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I don't find 101 Dalmatians to be that hyped within the company<< It was hyped enough to spawn two live action films and a DTV sequel (or was there more than one sequel, or a series or something?).
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy <While visually stunning and quite cute it really is an overblown cartoon.> The Xerox cartoony look "visually stunning"? I think it has great characters with some interesting development. I love the personalities of Pongo and Perdita, and the relationships not only between they and their "pets" (Roger & Anita), but also the different levels of connection the humans have about the dogs and puppies. <Not that it's such a bad thing, but it has about as much plot as a five minute short. Evil chick steals puppies, puppies escape, puppies return.> But you can use that logic against most any film, can't you? Evil queen wants to kill girl, girl escapes into woods, finds happiness with dwarfs. Wooden puppet is brought to life, learns about life, becomes a boy. Deer grows up. Girl stumbles into fantasy world. Boy is raised by wolves, lives in jungle, goes to live in village. Orphan girl is kidnapped, mice save her. Mermaid wants to be human, makes a deal with a witch, is saved by a prince. Etc.
Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>><<The Lion King.>> I would agree. Not because I think the movie is not good, in fact I think it's very good. It's just the movie is very hyped within the company to the detrement of many other deserving films.<<< Agreed. And Simba's entire "growth" as a character (his character arc) is weakly conceived and executed. He doesn't really grow and change, but for some reason he's still worthy of "reigning" over the entire animal kingdom... The movie hits emotional buttons, with very stimulating songs and a great score, but from a story perspective, it's got some very weak pillars supporting the whole prettyt thing.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 "It's just the movie is very hyped within the company to the detrement of many other deserving films" Kinda like they pushed Pooh down everyone's throat? Did it all start with a Mouse or a bear?
Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<But you can use that logic against most any film, can't you? Evil queen wants to kill girl, girl escapes into woods, finds happiness with dwarfs.>> But then the Evil queen kills the girl, then the girl has to be rescued by the prince. I would certainly say that Snow White would be a semi difficult story to tell in 5 minutes adequately. <<Wooden puppet is brought to life, learns about life, becomes a boy.>> Pinocchio does have a simple story, but unlike 101 Dalmatians, all the steps along the way are very important moral lessons. Pinocchio's character evolves through the tale, the 101 Dalmatians do not. <<Deer grows up.>> Bambi is a lot more detailed of a storyline than that. What about his mom getting shot and discovering first love and his home getting burned down. Certainly Bambi is an entire character piece with his attitude changing thoroughout. <<Girl stumbles into fantasy world.>> Alice in Wonderland storyline is not important which is why a lot of people don't like the movie. It's based on a book which was a parody of different personalities. Complaining about the storyline in Alice in Wonderland is lake complaining about the storyline of Airplane. <<Boy is raised by wolves, lives in jungle, goes to live in village.>> I agree and I think Jungle Book has a flimsy storyline. Mowgli has no character development at all. The movie just ends up being a fun romp with not much drive to it in my opinion. <<Orphan girl is kidnapped, mice save her.>> Rescuers does have a fairly simple plotline. <<Mermaid wants to be human, makes a deal with a witch, is saved by a prince.>> The deal is more complicated though, she has to get the prince to fall in love, and in the end she also gets turned into a mermaid by her father who changes his mind about letting her marry a human. In the end I would say I would agree on Jungle Book and Rescuers but the others to me have a much more rich and complicated storyline than 101 Dalmatians. Or in Alice in Wonderland's case it doesn't really matter anyway.
Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<Agreed. And Simba's entire "growth" as a character (his character arc) is weakly conceived and executed. He doesn't really grow and change, but for some reason he's still worthy of "reigning" over the entire animal kingdom...>> I would disagree with that. He starts out young craving responsibilty, quickly learns that responsibility carries weight and gets frightened. He gets older and wiser and decides to take on his responsibility by coming back. Sure it turns out that Simba wasn't to blame for his father's death but he comes back to take the blame for it. That's a very mature thing to do and I do think that it shows character development.
Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>>He gets older and wiser and decides to take on his responsibility by coming back.<<< But when did he gain that wisdom? What provoked that growth? Let's review: Thinking he's responsible for his father's death, he runs away from home, from owning up to it. He ends up with a couple of carefree louts, and adopts their lifestyle of no-responsibility. He gets three pep talks: one from his father's ghost, compelling imagery. One from his girlfriend/friend, and one from a monkey mentor. That's all they are - peptalks. Then he turns around and goes home. Simba is talked into returning. Granted, the peptalks are good. But he has learned nothing, and has not changed, nor has had to deal with adversity. He's been a bum, and worse, a cowardly bum. His arc is artificial. It would never survive scrutiny in a movie with flesh and blood humans. People don't think about it, because the imagery and music is compelling. But the film floundered for years in production, because they had a LOT of story problems like this. In the end, they simply never evaded or fixed the issue (I know firsthand). They simply added as much compelling imagery and moving things along fast. It's called cinematic sleight of hand. It's done in a lot of live-action movies, but we usually tend to think of those films as shallow. Lion King gets a pass, because it came at a unique time, and the contrivances are very dolled up. Simba doesn't grow.
Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<Simba is talked into returning. Granted, the peptalks are good. But he has learned nothing, and has not changed, nor has had to deal with adversity. He's been a bum, and worse, a cowardly bum. His arc is artificial.>> I don't agree with that. He's learned that you "can't change the past" and you can't play victim. You have to take charge of your life. The fact that he does not learn this on his own does not diminish the fact that Simba does have a change of heart. <<It would never survive scrutiny in a movie with flesh and blood humans.>> Honestly, do you really hold Hollywood to such high a standard? I can think of much more shallow movies, most people really don't scrutinize movies I've noticed. <<In the end, they simply never evaded or fixed the issue (I know firsthand). They simply added as much compelling imagery and moving things along fast. It's called cinematic sleight of hand.>> I understand that the movie carries a false sense of weight and depth to some extent, but it certainly is not as shallow to me as the way you are describing it. <<It's done in a lot of live-action movies, but we usually tend to think of those films as shallow.>> And since when are animated films particularly deep? <<Lion King gets a pass, because it came at a unique time, and the contrivances are very dolled up.>> I don't think that Simba's turn is a contrivance at all. It makes perfect logical sense to me. I can think of other Disney animated films with plenty of strange contrivances: Pinocchio How can Pinocchio "die" if he wasn't "real?" He's also underwater for an extended period of time with no ill effects, than he seemingly drowns. Dumbo Putting aside the conciet that a very heavy elephant can fly, have you ever seen a circus with that high of a ceiling to hold that tall of a flaming structure? Cinderella What are the odds that Cinderella is the only maiden with that size feet? I suppose it could be magical but the movie never depicts the slippers changing shape to fit her feet. Peter Pan Really Neverland makes no logical sense. You supposedly never grow up but yet there are indian families who are clearly having children (or at least have parents). Then of course there are the fully grown pirates. Do they also not grow up? Jungle Book That movie has the most strange ending. What are you supposed to gain out of it anyway? Little Mermaid Look above, but basically the fact that the father surrenders THE ENTIRE WORLD to his enemy to save his daughter's life is in my opinion the biggest plot contrivance in any Disney animated film and one of the worst plot holes in a major motion picture.
Originally Posted By bianca Pinocchio How can Pinocchio "die" if he wasn't "real?" He's also underwater for an extended period of time with no ill effects, than he seemingly drowns. Also, doesn't wood float? Cinderella What are the odds that Cinderella is the only maiden with that size feet? I suppose it could be magical That's what I alwaya thought, the shoes WERE made of magic, so they would secretly shrink or grow so only Cindy's feet would fot!
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORGOCH: I think it would a been better if'n Cindersmelly'd been made ta go barefoot at the ball 'n just left a toe ring behind fer Prince Alarmin' ta find 'n then roam the whole dang country side lookin' fer the right fit ta THAT!!!
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<which animated film do you think is the most overrated?>>> I know you want Disney movies but... Shrek
Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>>I don't agree with that. He's learned that you "can't change the past" and you can't play victim. You have to take charge of your life. The fact that he does not learn this on his own does not diminish the fact that Simba does have a change of heart.<<< Change of heart, stimulated and demonstrated by what? At what point has he learned anything from his experience, from his failings, to become a better "person"? He hasn't. He's gotten peptalks, including a couple of guilt trips, from dad and from his quasi-girlfriend. <<It would never survive scrutiny in a movie with flesh and blood humans.>> Honestly, do you really hold Hollywood to such high a standard? I can think of much more shallow movies, most people really don't scrutinize movies I've noticed. You have? This is why movies fail their second week. Word of mouth gets out that the story doesn't work, doesn't hold their interest, isn't compelling, or is ridiculous. People scrutinize movies, just the way they enjoy their theme parks - they don't articulate it - they just know what they like, and they stay away from what they think or hear they WON'T like. So yes, I hold films up to a high standard... since I kinda have to, in order to make a living. <<In the end, they simply never evaded or fixed the issue (I know firsthand). They simply added as much compelling imagery and moving things along fast. It's called cinematic sleight of hand.>> I understand that the movie carries a false sense of weight and depth to some extent, but it certainly is not as shallow to me as the way you are describing it.<<< To you, perhaps, but those MAKING the movie knew differently, and made a huge effort to overcome any sensitivity to the lightweight-quality of their story's forward motion elements. Katzenberg certainly knew. There's a reason that Pumbaa and Timon get so much screen time. <<It's done in a lot of live-action movies, but we usually tend to think of those films as shallow.>> And since when are animated films particularly deep?<<< THE IRON GIANT deals with very deep issues of loss and mortality. LILO AND STITCH deal with issues of kids having to raise themselves, isolation, ostracization, and how children act out in times of grief. THE RESCUERS, while a simple story, dealt with every parent and child's nightmare - kidnapping (and essentially abuse), as well as tough self-esteem issues. There's plenty of other films that deal with serious issues either tangently or as a major focus of story. BAMBI is a terrifically deep film in its own right. TARZAN is another such film, dealing with issues of identity, loyalty, love and the nature of sacrifice. TREASURE PLANET's themes are very heady, a shame considering the other blather that was thrown into that movie. Mary Poppins and Bedknobs both dealt with serious issues of their own, even though the subject matter/framing material was very light and frothy. You can have both. Just treat that material with respect. Contrivances ARE a staple of many movies, and some that you mention, like PINOCCHIO's logic problem, are legitimate examples. In DUMBO's case, I'd argue that the entire film is stylized, and from Dumbo's perspective. The tent seems all the higher to him, and by consequence the audience, BECAUSE he's the one who has to make that jump. The conceit of Cinderella is that everything about her transformation is touched by magic. So the shoes fitting is not only a literal issue, but a metaphorical issue. They won't fit feet that haven't been touched by magic. Kids understand this if you talk to them... it doesn't have to do simply shoe size. The shoes fit because they BELONG to her. Ariel's father wouldn't be the first to sacrifice the world for his beloved child. It's very much a resonant theme in literature throughout the ages. Mowgli goes back to his kind... It's where he belongs, and it's not an entirely happy ending - which makes it gutsy, along the lines of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. I don't know what else you're trying to get from it, but as endings to movies go, it's pretty emotionally satisfying, and you can feel the very human emotions between Mowgli, Bagheera and especially Baloo. This is what happens when kids grow up... they leave the nest. And as for Neverland - that place really ISN'T supposed to make sense - that's the nature of Neverland. Anything goes. Especially if you're Michael Jackson.
Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror Just as a postscript - many, many of the great films in our culture feature strong character arcs that bring our hero/heroine from one place to another, cleverly, carefully, learning lessons through hard knocks. RARELY are they just given a stern talking to, and then sit up and say "Hey, I changed my mind. I'm going to be a better person now and take responsibility for my life!" That might happen in church, but probably not while you're still enjoying your sins. There's usually a repentance of some kind, after you've had to suffer some kind of penance first. Otherwise, the audience feels it's not real... it's not evocative of real life... your chance at greatness, is not earned. It's not the stuff of great storytelling, and LION KING gets thinner and thinner (to me at least, and from my conversations, to many others) as the years wear on.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Most Overrated: 'Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs' Sorry, kids. I recognize the historical significance, it was the first animated feature et al, but man is this one a snoozer. It really showed how shallow the story is when they turned it into 'Snow White: The Musical' at Disneyland. That thinig was so boring, even the kids were bored.
Originally Posted By Autopia Deb ^^^Boy howdie! I made my kid go to it on a DL trip just for shows and parades and apoligized to him half way through. Snoozer is right!
Originally Posted By koobar fantasia non disney: shrek series spirited away iron giant anything wallace & grommit
