Originally Posted By jonvn It's being called "The War on the Middle Class" on CNN now. That's what it is. The middle class is disappearing. People are losing their homes, as foreclosures are up over 40% in some states. They are losing their pensions as companies say "Oh well, never mind" to them. Politicians like Bush want to suck their retirement dry by killing Social Security and "investing" in the stock market. We're heading for a two class society. The rich and the poor. And a lot of the people who voted for these clowns, and continue to excuse them for what they are doing to the middle class are to be blamed for their own ignorance and stupidity.
Originally Posted By jonvn "many of the 100,000 workers at Ford and GM scheduled to lose their jobs are union employees, it didn't help them." It can't protect everything. On the other hand, something needs to be done to check the power of corporations over employees, or you are back to practical serfdom. I think in addition to unions, we need to really stop buying stuff that's imported from China and from stores like WalMart. Unless these things happen, we're all going to go down the drain economically. Of course, people are not going to want to spend a bit more on shoes, so it's not going to be something that is practically possible. At that point, the government does need to step in and make it economically unfeasible for American companies to use slave wage labor in other countries so they can enrich themselves at the expense of the American population. "if the GOP gets blamed for today because they are in power = thent he Dems get blamed because they were in power during .com" The GOP gets blamed for things they have done, I think. They, via the current administration, have screwed up a lot of things. And they should be called on them.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <They are losing their pensions as companies say "Oh well, never mind" to them. Politicians like Bush want to suck their retirement dry by killing Social Security and "investing" in the stock market. We're heading for a two class society. The rich and the poor. And a lot of the people who voted for these clowns, and continue to excuse them for what they are doing to the middle class are to be blamed for their own ignorance and stupidity< the off shoring off white collar jobs began in earnest when Clinton was still in office...I know first hand, so don;t tell me otherwise. I was at an HR directors ( for comp and ben) meeting in the White House 2 years before Bush was elected and this topic was hot. Shared Services being imported as a strategy from Europe. Corporations jumped in with both feet, starting with India. It has since expanded to other 'low cost' countries..and no one has one a thing. So let's suppose you tell me what 1 freakin' Dem has said to address this or do anything... the answer is jack squat. So save the rhetoric for election time, but if you are supporting a Dem or a GOP candiate -- ask them to answer this issue -- they WON'T.\ My company, one of the world's largest killed it's traditional pension plan by announcing it in 1998 and putting making that plan effective in 1999. Who was in office then ? The Democrats my friend....and they stopped it how. I get so pissed when someone tries to blame this on any one party -- this killing of the middle class and off shoring of jobs, and elimination of pension plans is bi partisan all the way.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <The GOP gets blamed for things they have done, I think. They, via the current administration, have screwed up a lot of things. And they should be called on them.< as I have explained above , being in the positions I have been in for 25 years I have been on the front lines of this...and all you mention started in the late 90's....how do you blame the GOP for that ? You CAN'T. Have they fixed it or stopped it since - NO..I CAN blame them for that...but let's not rewrite the history of American Big Business to fit a political agenda -- it crosses over administration to administration.
Originally Posted By jonvn "the off shoring off white collar jobs began in earnest when Clinton was still in office..." Even before, in manufacturing. "So let's suppose you tell me what 1 freakin' Dem has said to address this or do anything..." I haven't heard a single word. The only difference is that it has been accelerating over the last several years, and NOTHING has been done about it. It may have started in the 90s, but it's epidemic now. And it is to the point where it should be addressed and it is not. Since it is not being addressed by the guys in there now, then maybe it will if they are replaced. But, as I said, I've not heard a word about it. If it were me, I'd start massively increasing taxes on those companies based in this country who offshore jobs so that it makes it economically impractical at any level to do so. It's a very simple solution, and will never happen, and we'll all be the poorer for it.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 The whole we're a services economy now started in the mid 90's -- and continues today...and it is a sham. We make precious little here, and our force as a world power was built on industry, not because we were 'smarter' than everyone else. Now most of our industry is gone. We buy the control systems for our state of the art fighter jets from Japan.. look at the electronics around your house - how many of them are now from Korea ? LG is starting to dominate industries like cell phones / microwaves / refrigerators and washers and driers..
Originally Posted By jonvn I think it started earlier than the 90s. Remember Look For The Union Label song from TV? That's sure gone. That started before the 90s. Now there's not a lot left. And you can't have an economy based solely on service. That is eventually going to collapse on itself.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <The only difference is that it has been accelerating over the last several years, and NOTHING has been done about it. It may have started in the 90s, but it's epidemic now. And it is to the point where it should be addressed and it is not. Since it is not being addressed by the guys in there now, then maybe it will if they are replaced. But, as I said, I've not heard a word about it. < if the guys who started it didn't nip it in the bud ( to quote barney Fife) and haven;t mentioned it since, what makes you think they would or could do anything today? Unfortunately I think that ship has sailed...and we are in real trouble....why doesn't Spike Lee do a movie about this ? Remember you say it has only become a crisis now-- that is incorrect..it started out like gangbusters with phone centers / and help desks gong to India in the mid 90's, and IT programming jobs going to China -- then slowed for a while around 99 - 01, but then it has been jump started by the vast amounts of educated cheap labor in places like Brazil and Thailand. This is the 'crisis' timeline...and involves both sides of the aisle. You are right in that manufacturing went earlier...mainly because that went due to unions who over priced their labor so much we could not compete.....then with the white collar jobs it was the lack of unionization that allowed that to go unchecked. Until the government starts making it financially unrewarding to off shore all of you manufacturing and white collar financial and analytical jobs - the will continue to go. The problem is big business has Dems and GOP's in their pockets as they always have. Who's going to step out. It is not feasable for smaller companies to off shore their work, there is no economy of scale. build a better product and people will buy it-- ask Harley Davidson. A Major company - AMF ran them into the ground and almost killed them off...yet as a company the size they are today, they can sell their product based on quality.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Now there's not a lot left. And you can't have an economy based solely on service. That is eventually going to collapse on itself. < has already started -- look at the major companies that rely heily now on 200% - 300% profit margins from consulting roles -- their growth has disappeared and looking forward forecats are dim --
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <That's what it is. The middle class is disappearing. People are losing their homes, as foreclosures are up over 40% in some states. < yep and not the states people would think -- the huge hit is coming across America's mid section ( more ways than 1) - as the states taking the heaviest hits are Illinois / Indiana and Ohio
Originally Posted By jonvn The thing is that this is just the exact sort of issue that the democrats SHOULD be going after. They are in a position now to become a populist party that shows itself willing to deal with the average person's issues. Are they doing that? No. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE USELESS IDIOTS. The Republicans may be venal, craven, and unable to properly govern, but at least they know how to stir up people to get them to vote for them. And if they get in again this November, after all the junk that has gone on, I'd have to say that the people in this country simply no longer care. Between Vietnam, Watergate, Clinton's impeachment over sex, and now this Iraq thing...all happening while jobs go overseas and gas is pushing $4 a gallon, they simply no longer care, or feel represented by this government. It's not going to last much longer. Not like it has.
Originally Posted By jonvn "what makes you think they would or could do anything today?" You keep mentioning the 90s. that was just part of it. But you do say that non-unionization helped for the white collar jobs. Really, this is not just something from the 90s. Computer jobs are just high-tech manufacturing jobs. And manufacturing started leaving in the 80s. So who is going to do something about it? Seems like no one, and it seems like we're screwed. The only thing you can do to protect yourself is to get a union job in an area that is absolutely impossible to be offshored. Something that requires local people. A lot of those jobs, unfortunately are with walmart. I've read stories where walmart pays so little, that the employees end up living in their cars in the parking lot. That is complete literal serfdom. Other jobs that might be better to get will not be that great, either, because there will be so much competition for them. Eventually, what I see happening is that as people are priced out of the housing market, large corporations are going to end up buying large tracts of homes, and lease them to people. Eventually home ownership will be a thing of the past, as every last cent you make either goes to a walmart for your food, or some other company for your rent. I wouldn't doubt that the real estate thing might happen quite soon, too. Already in San Francisco, property costs are so high, that over 60% of the people who live there rent. The general public can not afford to live there anymore otherwise.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <The thing is that this is just the exact sort of issue that the democrats SHOULD be going after. They are in a position now to become a populist party that shows itself willing to deal with the average person's issues. Are they doing that? No. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE USELESS IDIOTS. The Republicans may be venal, craven, and unable to properly govern, but at least they know how to stir up people to get them to vote for them. < you are absolutely correct. But do you want to be scared....I mean really scared ? how far off ( when you remove all the BS rhetoric) is this from being at least partially the comments from Beau. not all the points now, or almost any of the rhetorical comments that go along with it, but most people don't like change for the sake fo change...th Democrats need to offer a reason to change, or I fear they will be carvd up on side issues yet again in '08. Whether is playing to people's fears or whatever, the bottom line is they need to look back to where the roots of the party lie and get to it. Protect the American worker and his way of life and they will vote you into office...offer hope to those who need employment..and make sure America is viewed as strong by the rest of the world. the message is not that difficult -- Kennedy got it....my God even LBJ got it ( he was ineffective with regards to the war ( but he was more of a hawk than most anyone on the GOP side today ) - but he got it. where in the heck did THAT party go ? Look at '08 -- Hillary ( same old - same old) / Dean ( just goofy ) / Kerry ( been there- tried that) / Obaak ( getting all the press he wants right now for his agenda - nope) - they need to move quickly, as I have said before it is there for the taking..but they need someone to galvanize the middle -- and none of the above is going to make that happen.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <The only thing you can do to protect yourself is to get a union job in an area that is absolutely impossible to be offshored. Something that requires local people< there's the rub, as this is difficult. It isn't hard to imagine 'most' jobs being able to be done remotely. x-ray techs in India are reading xrays today for hospitals and talking to the docs here in the States. many of the jobs that you have to be here for as you mention are low paying manual positions. You mention SF - and you are not alone. My best friend moved to Irvine ( because that's where his job went )6 years ago. Now we live in what I consider a fairl yaffluent suburb of Chicago...yet he sold his house here....bought one in Irvine ( new) -- 500 sq ft less, no basement / zero lot line for twice the price. And since that house has doubled in 6 years. It is now just shy of a $2M home, at 3000 sq ft ! And we are not talking custom this or that...we are taling a tract house in a sub division. Now he is 57 and has been an executive for a number of years, but the house tapped him out...and he probably makes in the top 0.5% of incomes in the country. His wife grew up in Anaheim and her brother has the family house. 50 years old - very small 2 bedroom home - and yet it is $400K. Who can afford this ? My oldest daughter will graduate this year from college and become a teacher - at least I know she will have a job -- but will she ever own a home..at best it will be quite a while... but her liklihood of being employed at her profession 5 years from now is probably better than mine.
Originally Posted By jonvn "how far off ( when you remove all the BS rhetoric) is this from being at least partially the comments from Beau." I think it's quite different. With him, it's GOP=perfect, and everything else is traitorous, and caving in to terrorists. It's completely and totally unrealistic, uninformed, and unintelligent. "the Democrats need to offer a reason to change" yes, and they aren't. They are just not going to do very well with "They suck" as a campaign theme. Everyone already knows the republicans suck. But they don't know why the democrats don't suck just as much. "where in the heck did THAT party go ?" Disappeared around the early 70s. Then it went nuts, and we ended up with the Reagan Democrats, as blue collar folk started feeling abandoned by the party that traditionally supported them. The Republicans really haven't changed much over the years. They have always been the party of the wealthy, and are doing their best to continue in that role. What they have done of late is to dress it up in a fake religiosity that disguises their true nature and makes middle and lower classes vote for them against their own interests. Very clever on their part, and it's all because the Democrats have forsaken who their popular base had been for decades. They still can't figure it out, either. There are some who are so out of it, that they think Hillary Clinton would make a good candidate. There were a bunch of them that thought the bloodless and milquetoast John Kerry was a good candidate. Obama? Give me a break. He's about as electable as Michael Jackson (maybe less so). That means they'll probably nominate him. These are people who plainly believe in nothing, and don't appeal to who they need to appeal to. But I will say that there is one guy who managed to figure it out, but it took a giant kick in the pants for him to do it, and that's governor Arnold. He's acting in the best interets of those in the middle, and because of it, he's going to cream the democrat in the upcoming election. It seems to me to be a pretty obvious thing to do, but I guess once you are in politics, the obvious becomes elusive. The problem may be that extremists in both parties will not allow a centrist to be nominated. I think that's the case. And so in CT, we see Lieberman who lost the primary probably going to win as a third party centrist. Good for him.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <"how far off ( when you remove all the BS rhetoric) is this from being at least partially the comments from Beau." I think it's quite different. With him, it's GOP=perfect, and everything else is traitorous, and caving in to terrorists. It's completely and totally unrealistic, uninformed, and unintelligent. < yeah that part i get also- I am talking about the bottom line comment that without a message the Dem's will lose again. And while I don't know for sure they will win or lose...I know I want answers from whomever I vote for, and to date I either don't have them, or I don;t care for the ones I do have.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I don;t care for the ones I do have." I think this is how the general public's feeling is going, and apathy is simply going to win out, as people feel betrayed and let down by a government which seems simply uninterested in them or their problems. Not much point in voting if nothing makes a difference.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Disappeared around the early 70s. Then it went nuts, and we ended up with the Reagan Democrats, as blue collar folk started feeling abandoned by the party that traditionally supported them. < not only blue collar, but also true middle class white collar. That was me back then, first line manager - working 70 hours a week for far less per hour than most blue collar workers...etc. It was a time when the middle truly banded together to vote...and for all the knocks on Reagan from different groups, I know in my lifetime I never lived better overall than those years. There was a sense of pride and accomplishment..and when he spoke I actually thought he cared about me and the people I knew...( whether true, partially true or whatever it is the way I felt, and from vote results so did many ).... I just don't know that there is a candidate out there like that today that can solidify middle America...I know I am looking for him/her....
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>So who is going to do something about it? Seems like no one, and it seems like we're screwed. The only thing you can do to protect yourself is to get a union job in an area that is absolutely impossible to be offshored. Something that requires local people.<< as vb said, the are few jobs that fit this bill. Think longshoremen are safe? There are plans to have the container ships dock in Mexico and have the goods shipped up via a proposed 10 lane highway right into Kansas. Why have 150K per year longshoremen when you can have the same work done in Mexico for leass than 10K? Mexican truckers also earn less than your typical burger flipper in the US. School teachers? Here come the H1-B visa holders. There is no end to the number of people who would happily do our jobs for 1/10 of our pay.
Originally Posted By jonvn "as vb said, the are few jobs that fit this bill." Yes. The middle class is being destroyed. As I said, the few jobs that will be here will pay less because so many people will want them. But hopefully this will all be made ok, because we may soon have a Constitutional ammendment that bans burning of the American flag.
