Originally Posted By ChiMike >>OK, so now I will ask you...what does one have to do with the other. We weren't talking about HISTA or SGE.<< Goofy: Horizons was having some structural problems and needed to go. On top of that, no one was riding it. -- I conclude from your statement that on top of the structural problems that Horizons had it's nonexistant ridership was enough of a reason to see it removed. Using that logic I can say HISTA and SGE have noticible crowds entering each of their facilities and because of that and their continued popularity Disney should not worry about updating either. It just doesn't carry water for me. There were days in the late 90s when Horizons saw more guests than Snow White. Should Snow White be removed too? How about Minnie's house, should that be removed? Now if you want to say that the metrics for Horizons operations (e.g. in a basic example: Cost/Rider) were worse than Snow White's. Then I would agree. But that's not what you are saying; you simply don't see a 2800/hour continually loading behemoth of an attraction have a back-up of people in the queue. That is what causes me to object to your observation. That, and through your admission you had not visited Horizons until Disney had already taken it off the guests' radar as an available attraction offering. >>Having a little trouble recognising sarcasm?<< No. >>I am 58 years old believe me I know nothing is perfect or even close to it. My comment was directed towards those that think everything has to be perfect or it is wrong. I do enjoy Disney and I am forgiving of a few minor flaws because until I become perfect I surely cannot expect others to be.<< I have enjoyed your posts, hopefully you will view my posts as a desire to see better from Disney, not perfection.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I miss Horizons and WoM both. But I also believe that something needed to be done to both attractions as they were tired by the mid-90s. I just don't believe Disney -- and its guests -- got the bang for their bucks. Test Track has been plagued by such constant breakdowns that it missed being open for Disney's huge 25th Anniversary media event, which is the reason why now all major attractions open months before they're presented as officially open. Almost a decade later, TT still goes down more frequently ... nah, let's just say a lot. Mission Space, I love the ride. But it isn't for everyone. And it does make a significant number of guests ill to some degree. It has a bad rep and it isn't that popular. A true space pavillion with many attractions and experiences would have allowed for a centrifuge attraction because it wouldn't have been the whole enchilada.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost ChiMike, What we have here is a failure to communicate. We are basically in agreement on most things but when you take my words out of context it isn't working. This is what I said..."but, from what I understand, Horizons was having some structural problems and needed to go. On top of that, no one was riding it." The first part is just what I heard, I cannot prove it, nor, like I stated, do I care. "No one was riding it" was not what I heard it is what I observed. Was that reason enough to close it, well if I owned a store that almost no one was going into I would probably close that too. How did that compare to the others that you mentioned? I do not know and if you have numbers handy I am willing to read them but otherwise it is just a guess on your part, as well as this was a guess on mine. Also it is a huge waste of time, Horizons is gone, history, past tense. An argument over whether it was justifiable closed is futile and won't change a thing. One More Time...How did you ever get the idea, from what I wrote that I was looking for perfection. Do I think that Disney can do better? Sure! I also think it has because, in my opinion, Mission Space beats the snot out of Horizons, Soarin" is far superior to Food Rocks, Lights, Motors, Action is way better than that tired old "make believe house" street that if you think about the time frame you know could not have been used for any of the shows that they represented and Expedition Everest is way better than the empty lot that was there before it. Have they made mistakes? Many of them! Am I happy about that? No, I am not. My statement about perfection was that it doesn't exist, in any form. I am not looking for it, but if I should happen to see it someplace, I will let everyone know. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>But I also believe that something needed to be done to both attractions as they were tired by the mid-90s. << Yes. I would agree, both of those attractions needed at the very least an update; Horizons not as much, like CoP and especially 20K, a lot of Horizons problems came directly from Disney's intended neglect. Anyways, I agree '74 the higher problem is what Disney choose to replace them with. Walt updated areas where the replacements were sooo much better that the loss of the prior offering wasn't even an afterthought. I think TT, Ellen's, Buzz, & Philharmagic, and now Seas have done that. I think Pooh, Pooh's playground, M:S, SGE, and JIYIWFDNCATII part IV have not. >>A true space pavillion with many attractions and experiences would have allowed for a centrifuge attraction because it wouldn't have been the whole enchilada.<< Agreed. That is what is so frustrating. They offered us a piece of the intended puzzle and spent a load on it. They threw in all the slick marketing and had Al with his poorly-executed pyro proclaim how the attraction would be the most popular yet. The problem is that they didn't know well enough how that one and only piece of the puzzle would affect (and appeal to) their own guest.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>"No one was riding it" was not what I heard it is what I observed. Was that reason enough to close it, well if I owned a store that almost no one was going into I would probably close that too.<< Well then I didn't take your words out of context at all. I think we are communicating very clearly. You saw that there was no line at the times you visited Horizons. Because of this it wasn't popular enough to warrant being open. I disagree and have given reasons why a line is not a good indicator. I mean from opening day the entire length of the queue from the exterior door to load was intentionally designed to hold no more than a 13 minute wait. Not the 90 minutes over at TT, not the 45 minutes over at Peter Pan. No. No more than a 13 minute wait from the day it was premiered as an attraction. See where I am going? When the ride opened as the biggest, most ground-breaking, ride-through Disney felt it had ever attempted, they only had enough room to accommodate a 13 min. wait. So 13 years later after Disney had already pulled the attraction out of mothballs you swing by and see no wait. Sorry, it just doesn't persuade me. If you go through discussion archives on various areas on the internet you can see CM comments that in the last years of it's shuttered operations they were still getting xxx or xxxx people in per hour. It's ridership levels were still trending w/ Epcot's fluctuating daily attendance level. The line or lack of line meant nothing. Disney WANTED the ride GONE. Just as they wanted Mr. Toad GONE. Mr. Toad maintained one of the longest lines in Fantasyland up until it closed. From opening to close. BUT THAT did not stop them from destroying it, did it? Higher reasons cause them to close these attractions. Marketing desires, merchandising desires, thrill desires. Whatever. >>How did that compare to the others that you mentioned? I do not know and if you have numbers handy I am willing to read them but otherwise it is just a guess on your part, as well as this was a guess on mine.<< The exact numbers on Dec 23, 1997? Yes, unless someone working that day wants to chime in, it is a guess. My point is that Snow White is often a walk-on and it only has 1/3 the THRC that Horizons had. If Snow White was my market-front business should I be filing chapter 11 on it too? >>Also it is a huge waste of time, Horizons is gone, history, past tense.<< Didn't stop you from contributing your standpoint on history - that Horizons saw nobody because the times you visited, after 1995, there was no line. I think you are stating a fact. I do. I just think it's not the whole picture and I don't believe it to even be a secondary reason on why the ride was removed. Hence our friendly debate. >>One More Time...How did you ever get the idea, from what I wrote that I was looking for perfection.<< You said it not me. "" As soon as I find something in life that is perfect, I'll be sure to let you all know. "" Seriously though, you were implying that others (I presume myself included) expect perfection. I think that is a mischaracterization of my and other's real legitimate views and concerns. I agree with some of the positives you outline above, but again at the end of your post I feel you whip up an idea that those who might be more critical than you are on some quest for perfection. That simply is not true. I think a lot of people on here are very savvy when it comes to realizing what a bureaucracy this division in the company is. It's not rocket science, some people like some decisions and other people other decisions. Nobody is on the quest for the Holy Grail.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I think I'm going to stop throwing fuel on this fire. Nothing I'm going to say or can do is going to bring either Horizons or WoM back. Lets just hope that the rides/ attractions now planning and being built are going to surpass what Disney has done in the past. Here's to a Bright Big Beautiful Tomorrow!
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Nothing I'm going to say or can do is going to bring either Horizons or WoM back<< Sure Tom, but I wanted to say that I think it is great to hear other's opinions on these two attractions. It's nice to read about additional positive memories. That isn't throwing fuel on my fire at least. It's too bad that not every current fan of WDW was able to see them before '94. WDW's market has expanded so greatly in the last decade that I think there would have been a lot more people holding favorable sentiment towards the attractions. At the same time guests do expect more thrills. It's too bad that there isn't the flexibility withing WDW's operations for both the new and the old.
Originally Posted By Lewis Goofy <<A quick google ( after 10 pages I stopped ) has failed to turn up any awards/recognition>> Mission Space won the THEA award for the Attraction with the best Technological Breakthrough in 2004. Mission Space is highly revered within the industy.
Originally Posted By Lewis Goofy <<My point is that Snow White is often a walk-on and it only has 1/3 the THRC that Horizons had. If Snow White was my market-front business should I be filing chapter 11 on it too?>> Snow White Does not have any sponsers to answer to. Horizons and WOM did. I don't think there sponsers were happy that no one was going in there attraction. Horizons and WOM should have been closed down years before. CMs who say that those attractions were meeting there guest per hour are telling mis truths. Both rides were dead. If you look at Future World today there is energy and life back. With MS and TT Soarin' the place is alive. No longer do guest enter Epcot and head straight to World Showcase. Brad Rex and his team have to be congratulated for getting Epcots Future World off life support.
Originally Posted By hopemax The THEA awards didn't exist before 1994, so does that mean anything created before then was never as good as something that won an award after?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Mission Space won the THEA award for the Attraction with the best Technological Breakthrough in 2004. Mission Space is highly revered within the industy.<< First. It won it in a category that didn't have any noticible competition. It's not like it won it above Spiderman, Men In Black, or Pooh's Hunny Hunt. It's an annual award. Sorry, not impressed. Especially since Mummy had already won an award that year in a seperate category. So is Mummy also revered within the industry? By the way the next year Disney only won a Thea award for Disneyland's fireworks plus an honorary puff-award for Disneylands 50 years in general. So did the industry not highly revere WDW's 3 additions? It's a bogus yardstick. Ask the people who were upset when Biff started trashing DCA in his monologue. >>Snow White Does not have any sponsers to answer to. Horizons and WOM did. << That's nonsense. Horizons lost and ran without it's sponsership for four+ years. Disney had to answer to Disney?! >>I don't think there sponsers were happy that no one was going in there attraction.<< GE did not pull out because Disney refused to change Horizons. When GE pulled out Horizons was seeing solid crowds. This idea that these rides were ghost towns, especially before 1995 when Horizons had already lost it's sponser really speaks towards the poster's familiarity with WDW operations of the early 90s. >> CMs who say that those attractions were meeting there guest per hour are telling mis truths.<< Define meet. I never said it was meeting anything. I did say that there was reports on Usenet, Y! Groups and even Intercot in the last year, that depending on how pathetic Epcot's daily attendance was in the mid 90's, Horizon's maintained its historical porportion of visitors to Epcot's overall daily figure. If all you are going on is a first trip to Orlando in 1998, I will state again that it is not a relevant sampling of how "dead" the attraction was >>If you look at Future World today there is energy and life back. With MS and TT Soarin' the place is alive. No longer do guest enter Epcot and head straight to World Showcase. Brad Rex and his team have to be congratulated for getting Epcots Future World off life support.<< You obviously don't have much history with the place. World showcase played second fiddle to Future World when the park opened. You can thank your heroes in management for putting WS in a position to support the operation of the entire park. It wasn't WOM and Horizons being dead that caused it. It has been the last decade of changes. It was shoehorning additions designed haphazardly without any thought to an overall cohesiveness and appeal. It was being overbudget and overdue on opening Test Track. It was letting one person go for a egotistical power grab on JII. It was ignoring Seas for 10 years. It was not upgrading WoL. It was letting Innoventions rot. It was boarding up ON-STAGE the global neighborhood. Shall I go on?? I believe no other area of a Disney park world-wide has been so poorly mismanaged. A complete opposite from the evolution of DL's Fantasyland, Future World was ruined by people trying to fix it. Future World HAS DEVOLVED. And you want to blame Horizons and World of Motion. Yeah, ok, right. I'll let '74 tell me how wrong I am on Brad Rex, I know he's a fan. Actually, most of the mistakes I outlined were before Brad..
Originally Posted By Coachbagfanatic1 I know this might sound like a really silly question but what is Horizons and World of Motion?
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Horizons and World of Motion were two of the original Pavallions at EPCOT CENTER. They were both torn down and in the place of World of Motion we now have Test Track. And in the place where Horizons was we now have Mission Space. This should help. <a href="http://waltdatedworld.bravepages.com/id18.htm" target="_blank">http://waltdatedworld.bravepag es.com/id18.htm</a>
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I know this might sound like a really silly question but what is Horizons and World of Motion?<< Coachbag, here are some links. World of Motion: <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4377051940512852766&q=tomorrowland" target="_blank">http://video.google.com/videop lay?docid=-4377051940512852766&q=tomorrowland</a> Horizons: <a href="http://www.intercot.com/themeparks/epcot/media/horizonsride.ram" target="_blank">http://www.intercot.com/themep arks/epcot/media/horizonsride.ram</a> Hope that helps!
Originally Posted By Coachbagfanatic1 ChiMike, Thanks, I am going to watch the video in a bit when I have more time. I can't wait to watch it.
Originally Posted By billy pilgrim our disney vacation was great, only the size of the crowds could be shortened. Just like cart man, i would like the parks to myself for 1 week, no lines
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORWEN: For all you sweet little ducklings who said you miss WoM so much, us Cauldron girls want you to know we're very touched and that we're here to assure you we aren't going anywhere any time soon. (sniff, sniff)
Originally Posted By Labuda Glad to hear, Witches!!! Oha, and I believe there mgith be a topic for you over in Community, too!
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORGOCH: Yeah, I went saw what ya meant, Labuda, ducklin'. Thanks 'n all but that topic's fer my big fat sister ONLY! I cain't STAND Krispy Kremes my own dang self. ORDDU: Hi, Labuda, duckling!! So nice to be in contact with you again. You'll have to forgive poor Orwen though. She hasn't yet learned what WoM really stands for, yet. ORGOCH: Don't be so nice 'bout it. After all these years, the old fat bat ain't even learned how ta tie her own shoes, yet!
