Originally Posted By wahooskipper <What is the general definition of "truth"?> Well, that depends on what the definition of the word "is" is.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <The problem is that Joe Jones did not have thousands of witnesses who saw him perform miracles, nor saw him prosecuted for no crime, nor saw him resurrected after execution, nor heard him prior say "If you see the Lord, you see me". Nor did anyone see a star appear at his birth, nor did anyone predict miracles that he would have performed.> There are lots of people who would say the same about Jesus. That it's all oral tradition, written down many years later, and not reliable. I'm not one of them, but you must realize that's so. Ultimately, these things DO come down to faith, and with various faiths come certain assumptions. A Muslim can preach at me all he wants about how Mohammed is THE prophet, and the Koran clearly says so, but I don't believe in the Koran, so how far does that take me? Right back in circles. A Jew might say there are good reasons for believing Jesus is not the person foretold in the OT (I think it was jonvn, or maybe imadisneygal, who did this before, quite credibly). I believe in Jesus, but I recognize that the leap of faith is still necessary to believe. It's not a "gimme."
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Ultimately, these things DO come down to faith, and with various faiths come certain assumptions. << One assumption is that these are 'universal truths'. Obviously and demonstrably, they are NOT, yet mark here is far from the only person who operates as if they were. So I guess my question for these people is - why the constant need for external validation on matters of your faith? You believe these things to be true - fine. But for some reason it's important to you that everybody everywhere acknowledge it as 'truth'. Ask yourself why. Could it be that perhaps your faith isn't as strong as it could be? That something as intangible and improbable as god sending his only begotten son to our planet, to atone for our sins, crucified, died and buried, only to be resurrected into heaven, might not have actually happened the way you've been told? Your guess is as good as mine. You may 'believe' that's what happened, but you don't really know. Neither does anybody else.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn Utahjosh in post #39 was correct. "Truth" is things as they actually are. God actually is. Jesus Christ actually is. They are the single truth, contrary to any other point of view. All other points of view are lies. The motivation of exposing the truth actually comes from the Great Commission as spoken by the resurrected Jesus: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Note that "surely" also means "truthfully") And it is truthful that Jesus Christ is the Lord: Jesus said: "I am the way and the ~truth~ and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." He testified to the truth, and the truth is that Jesus is the Lord, and that ~nobody~ ~NOBODY~ goes to Heaven except through him. If a million people from Myarmar who died in a typhoon did not accept Jesus Christ, then truthfully none of them have gone to Heaven. The truth is the truth. The people, like many of you, didn't exactly trust him, or believe him. One of those people was his very disciple Phillip who said: "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." The truthful Jesus replied: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the ~truth~, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." I liar would not admit to the truth.
Originally Posted By jdub Why did Jesus Come to Earth? Hmmm, because he heard Uranus was already saved?
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn Chew on this for a moment: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzvKOgCrag8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...KOgCrag8</a>
Originally Posted By X-san ***God actually is. Jesus Christ actually is. They are the single truth, contrary to any other point of view. All other points of view are lies.*** Stuff like this really, really, REALLY makes me hope there is a god. And that he's either pro-Jewish or pro-Muslim or something. If I asked nicely, do you think I'd be allowed to see the look on mrk's face when he arrived there?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>God actually is. Jesus Christ actually is. They are the single truth, contrary to any other point of view. All other points of view are lies.<< These kinds of sweeping claims impress fellow believers, but are meaningless and add nothing to any discussion of God, Jesus, or religion. To quote the Bible as any kind of evidence for truth or god is the ultimate in circular logic. The only evidence that the Bible is the word of God comes from... ta da! The Bible.
Originally Posted By X-san ***They are the single truth, contrary to any other point of view. All other points of view are lies.*** Would you back up such claims by telling a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu or a Buddhist that their faith is nothing but a lie?
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I was brought up and educated as a Christian. Even at an early age I questioned what was happening. Not necessarily about an existence of God because all I had to do is look around and see the order of nature, the planets, the stars and the complex external and internal makings of human beings to know that this didn't just accidentally happen. What I questioned was the voodoo, magical nature of organized religion and what it expected (and got) people to believe. As I read through these posts the con's don't seem to affect me one way or the other, but, the pro's do. When I look at it in print it all seems silly. God, as Jesus (supposed to be one you know) comes across as egotistical and downright mean at times. I am now and did then, have a problem wrapping my head around that type of God. I don't think I will ever doubt that there is a "God" out there. I don't know what form God is, but, for whatever reason I do believe in the existence. I just am not willing to put human values on a concept that is so much larger then us. God wouldn't be human, God would be God. I don't think that can be defined in any real terms that we are familiar with. For all of you that are going to interpret this as a threat to your beliefs, please don't! You need to believe what you are comfortable believing in...I'm just expressing my thoughts on the matter.
Originally Posted By dshyates "God actually is. Jesus Christ actually is." Very simply. No they are not. Its a fairy tale. I have come to the conclusion s to why the Christians burn Harry otter Books. They really are afraid of them. When I joked the other day that they needed to change the name of the Bible to, "JC's World of Magic and minions". It sort of cleared things up for how christians think. They honestly believe in Magic (miricles) and they believe that Satan and his minions are at the grocery store/ mall/ just outside the church door ready to entice them to hell. People walking on water, raising from the dead, plagues of frogs. They really believe in magic. For them the world has to be a terrifing place, having to thwart Satan and is minions waiting just outside their door or oozing into their house through the "liberal media" (translation SATAN) TV News and decadent MTV shows. They need a story book to save them.
Originally Posted By teddibubbles John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. john 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Originally Posted By teddibubbles ( side note) I have made a long letter about God s love for us. and what relationship Jesus wants with us. and it addresses a deeper and closer with him. . please feel free to email me and ask for a copy (no spam) . thank you
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn <Would you back up such claims by telling a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu or a Buddhist that their faith is nothing but a lie?> Absolutely. Muslim, Hindu and Buddists' faith are based on lies. Aethist views as well are based on lies. The Jews are an exception. They are half-way there. They only need to complete their faith in God by enabling their trust in the Jewish Jesus Christ to unlock the door to the face of God. By the way, why can't the Bible be used as a record of evidence?
Originally Posted By jdub <<By the way, why can't the Bible be used as a record of evidence?<< Read it through--WITNESS the contradictions. It's NOT thouroughly researched, it's different stories (some about the same subject) written by different people. <<By the way, why can't the Bible be used as a record of evidence?>> Oh, heck, you're RIGHT--and to follow the logic, sure, why not the Torah alone? The Avesta? The Bhagavad Gita? The Tipitaka? The Quran?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I just am not willing to put human values on a concept that is so much larger then us.<< I agree. There are aspects of faith that are profound, moving, important. In my own life, I have seen people's faith get them through some horrible things, I have seen people be incredibly giving and kind, motivated by their faith alone. Then there is a certain vindictive quality among some of the most ardently faithful I find disturbing and off-putting. I don't understand it, and it seems to be the antithesis of love and compassion -- the cornerstone of every faith -- but then they'd probably say that's because I don't have enough faith, or something.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Muslim, Hindu and Buddists' faith are based on lies. Aethist views as well are based on lies. The Jews are an exception. They are half-way there.*** Thank you. You are at least honest enough in your ignorance to illustrate in one horrible statement the very depths of hateful intolerance the christian church has always been based upon. And, interestingly, the catholic propaganda supports your statement almost word for word (always with that special caveat for the Jews, since they authored "the old stuff" after all, and besides you can't possibly say anything anti-semitic and get away with it..better to give them a pass and dismiss all the rest of the planet in one hateful statement). ***By the way, why can't the Bible be used as a record of evidence?*** Because it's not. It's a storybook, same as the rest of those books that you feel so confident to declare "Lies". God would probably ban you from heaven just for the sheer hubris in which you tout your superiority, if he exists. No proper supreme being could do otherwise.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn <You are at least honest enough in your ignorance to illustrate in one horrible statement the very depths of hateful intolerance the christian church has always been based upon.> You admitted Jesus was a great guy. Now you're admitting that he's a hater. My "ignorance" comes from ignoring the common lie. And it is not born of hate. A Christian is prohibited from hating other people, not matter their conviction or lack of conviction. So if the Bible is to not be used as a reference or as a record of evidence, then when (for example) will the US Constitution be treated as such? One day it too will be two thousand years old. When will it enter into a state of "irrelevance"? After all, it was written by a bunch of slave owners who are all dead.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn What a word: "Tolerance". It suggests that all things are false, or all things are true, but neither are true nor false. There's no logic to it whatsoever. Reality is that there is truth ... and yes it is quite intolerant. With that, intolerance is not a bad thing. It's a good thing, especially when the truth invites ALL to join.
