Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<It seems like if you believe in God you are suppose to shut the heck up. But if you are an atheist you can say whatever the heck you want.>> I want to get back to this statement. Its not the roll of government or schools to promote one or any religion. What people don't understand is that IF we want religion in schools then the school is obligated to treat ALL religions equally. Do really really want to treat witchcraft the same as christianity? Here in Cobb County Georgia about three years ago the graduation was being held at a Baptist church and the graduating class was allowed to invite ANY quest they wanted. Well they selected a Wicca witch and a Jewish Rabbi. Oh course the Baptist church objected and who did the media talk focus on? The Jewish Rabbi. Unless you want Judeo-Christian religion on an equal footing as any other religion such as Witchcraft, keep religion out of governemnt school.
Originally Posted By jdub >> I was brought up in Christian schools...so got ONLY Intelligent Design<< I did several years in Christian schools which, fortunately, knew the difference between science and allegory.
Originally Posted By jdub "I find it interesting that those who ask Christians to be tolerant, are sometimes incapable of being tolerant of Christians." Do people have a habit of lashing out when the religious beliefs of certain people are pried onto their children as fact in a public school? People DO.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ Wow! I agree with Tom 100% on something!! Religion in the schools will work against Christianity more than it will work for it. On the general topic of Evolution vs. ID... I am a Christian (perhaps not a very good one, but I am one). I believe God created the heavens and the Earth. I believe the story of creation in Genesis is allegory rather than literal fact. I believe God has used the laws of physics and biology and natural selection as tools for his creation. Why do some who believe in creation think God just had to wave a freakin magic wand and pop -- everything was there? To me it is far more wondrous that God was able to formulate all of these forces and natural laws and use them over time to produce the universe... to have accomplished a creation that was not "one and done", but a creation that continues to this very day and will continue into the future. I guess I give my God credit for a little more intelligence than some of these other folk do. Freakin Magic Wand indeed... what a joke.
Originally Posted By jdub >>The earth being the center of the universe? You know it's true!<< You just shut up now, Mr. Sarcastic-- that's a religious belief you are mocking!
Originally Posted By jasmine7 <<Why do some who believe in creation think God just had to wave a freakin magic wand and pop -- everything was there?<< Heh, reminds me of Robin Williams' riff on Creationism a few years ago. "You don't believe life on Earth evolved and change over a period of millions of years?" "No, God just went click."
Originally Posted By schoolsinger I wrote: >>>does NOT do anything to advance the believability of your claims.<<< Then TomSawyer wrote: >>>Casting doubt is what Creationists do. Science has evidence on it's side, and experiments and observations that you can do for yourselves. They aren't asking anyone to believe anything that they can't go out and prove on their own. Or try to disprove as the case may be.<<< Let me clarify something. When the Secular Humanists want all of the rights of other religions, the Supreme Court considers them a religion. But when Secular Humanists want influence in places like government schools, the Supreme Court rules them not to be a religion. So basically if it works in their favor to be a religion they are; and if being a religion works against them, they are not in the eyes of the law. Atheists are playing both sides of the fence. They have an unfair advantage in our court system.
Originally Posted By RC Collins >>Show us where anyone supporting evolutionary science believes your slight- of-hand.<< They do with the origin of the universe. The universe of matter/energy supposedly came from nothing, as far as this universe goes. Naturalists think it just... happened. Supernaturalists think there was something transcendent of the universe that created it. >>Fossil records are replete with examples of species that develop usually from a smaller form to a larger form as in the case of the horse.<< Horses are horses, though. It doesn't really change what it is. >>Likewise, other spieces develop from a land mammal into several different spieces from whales, dolphins or seals.<< Yeah, last time I was at the beach, I was concerned about one of those animals coming out of the ocean to crush me. >>Those examples, plus the ability for humans to modify nearly any plant or animal strongly suggests that living organisms do in fact evolve.<< HUMANS... not mindless nature.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But until they can establish testable hypotheses that withstand peer scrutiny, ID doesn't belong in a science classroom.> That's the crux of it, right there. Well said. Look, I'm a Christian and I happen to believe that God created us and all other forms of life here. I don't believe He did so one literal day after He created the animals. I believe that Genesis is allegory, and that God and evolution are hardly mutually exclusive. Of course, all that is belief. For all the gaps in evolution, we must remember that this is how science works - everything starts as a theory and then we work to prove or disprove it, and expand our knowledge. Gravity is still officially a theory. Nor did Newton figure out the laws of attraction all by himself; his work was later expanded upon and refined by many others. We must remember also that there is much of evolutionary theory that IS proven and observable. National Geographic had an excellent story on this, I'm thinking 8 or 9 months ago, in which they went into this and what was definitely known and what was not. That was the one with the big question on the cover: "was Darwin wrong?" Then you opened the issue to find a huge, page-filling "NO." And then the article to explain why. So, IMO, we should certainly teach the parts of evolutionary theory that are proven and observable in science class because, well, they're good science. Classes for older kids could also get into the gaps and what is only partially known. ID can still be taught - in the churches and in the home, if you so desire. But it doesn't belong in science class; it is at bottom a matter of faith.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 And to tie this to something Disney, apparently Walt believed in some way in evolution; witness the Rites of Spring section of Fantasia, especially the part before the dinosaurs appear. But he was also a Christian - they're really not mutually exclusive.
Originally Posted By schoolsinger >>>Look, I'm a Christian and I happen to believe that God created us and all other forms of life here. I don't believe He did so one literal day after He created the animals. I believe that Genesis is allegory, and that God and evolution are hardly mutually exclusive.<<< If any part of the Bible is wrong the whole book can’t be trusted. I am sick of “cafeteria Christians†that just pick and choose what parts of the Bible they wish to believe or not believe. If the Bible is wrong about anything, why would you trust your soul in it? This is why evolutionary theory of origins is a threat to Christianity. If you discredit one part of the Bible you discredit the whole book.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Ah, the old fundie argument. Thank God for external authority...like the Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth (look it up, it's in in 1 Timothy 3:15), that I don't have to rely on "sola scriptura," or try to interpret passages on my own authority.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <If you discredit one part of the Bible you discredit the whole book.> But believing that Genesis is allegory isn't discrediting, really. Many people believe that the six "days" of Genesis are millions of years long each. Do you really believe God created each and every species of animal on the same day and then one literal day later created humans? How do you reconcile that with the fossil records that show all those species predating us by millions of years? I know that there are those who think if you discredit anything in the Bible you've discredited it all, but only if you cling to literalism, IMO. To me it's all about understanding that the book is full of allegory, metaphor and parable. In the New testament it's often clearly labeled as such. In the Old, it's not.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>If the Bible is mostly allegory, how can anyone understand it?<< Some of it is, some of it isn't. The Bible actually has multiple layers of meanings. If you're confused...check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church and it will explain it to you.
Originally Posted By schoolsinger If the Catechism says one thing, and the Bible clearly says another, what should I believe?
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>If the Catechism says one thing, and the Bible clearly says another, what should I believe?<< I can't think of a single instance of that happening.
Originally Posted By schoolsinger 1 Timothy 2:1 "For there is one God and hone Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus," If Jesus is the only mediator, why are we allowed to pray to saints? ----- Now back to the original topic.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<The belief that there is no supernatural is still a belief about the supernatural.>> Ahh...yeah. It's the belief that the supernatural is bunk. Nothing more. <<Atheism is just as much a religion as Theism.>> No, it's not. It's the absence of religion. Religion is a man-made concept. Some of us don't have, need, or want it. To me, a vexing thing about many "religious" people is that they can't believe that anyone else could possibly live without it. They have to twist our non-need for religion into some sort of overarching belief system. It's not. They're projecting their own needs.
Originally Posted By MissCandice <<<Atheism is just as much a religion as Theism. >>> I know this was just addressed by the previous poster but I was just astounded to read that. Atheism is NOT a religion at all. We don't acknowledge any kind of supernatural being. I know I don't worship anything.
