Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<And he's a REPUBLICAN, for pete's sake.>>> Why do you keep thinking he is a Republican? Powell? In his book he clearly states that he is not partisan. Bush isn't the only administration he has worked under by any means. You have him figured wrong.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Now I will admit that a lot of would be republican voters stayed home, but they didn't vote Obama because of Palin.*** Well, imo those that stayed home did it in spite of Palin, not because of her. But their numbers are small. As for the fence sitters (the "moderates" if you will), I believe she was a strong and important consideration for them. You don't agree, and that's fine, but that's the way it appeared to me.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad >>>I'm sorry, but no. I feel that your position of thinking that Palin wasn't relevent to some peoples' decision making is laughable. <<< I never said that. I claim that she isn't the reason that the GOP lost. I am sure that SOME PEOPLE voted Obama, that would have otherwise voted McCain, but I don't think its a many as YOU want to claim. But you know, it really doesn't matter anyway. Why do either one of us care?
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<As for the fence sitters (the "moderates" if you will), I believe she was a strong and important consideration for them.>>> No, I think old man McCain's ridiculous "I'm putting my campaign on hold to run to DC to FIX the economy" is where the fence sitters jumped off.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad >>>Palin, on the other hand, I would have no confidence in. I'd be scared every day that she would irreparably harm the nation somehow by doing something naive, stupid, or downright crazy.<<< You could say the EXACT same thing about Biden, and what has he really done? Not a damn thing. And that might be a good thing when you think back to Cheney.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I claim that she isn't the reason that the GOP lost.*** And as I said, she certainly didn't help any. ***I don't think its a many as YOU want to claim*** I'm not making any claims on numbers, I just think a good number of people did factor her ineptness into their decision. ***But you know, it really doesn't matter anyway.*** True. ***Why do either one of us care?*** Conversation? ***No, I think old man McCain's ridiculous "I'm putting my campaign on hold to run to DC to FIX the economy" is where the fence sitters jumped off.*** That certainly didn't help. Particularly not with the economy crashing on top of his head right after he claimed everything was "fine" (this from a guy who admits economics isn't his "thing"). But at that point the campaign was in crash and burn mode anyway, and THAT started with SarahPac.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I think Biden's an okay guy (needs to shut his mouth more often though), and I would feel reasonably confident if he became President that he would do a competent job if not all that inspiring. Palin, on the other hand, I would have no confidence in. I'd be scared every day that she would irreparably harm the nation somehow by doing something naive, stupid, or downright crazy.> Makes sense. The person who says stupid things constantly and has never run anything is more competent than the person who has acutally successfully ran a city and a state.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***You could say the EXACT same thing about Biden, and what has he really done? Not a damn thing. And that might be a good thing when you think back to Cheney.*** Biden is doing exactly what the VP is supposed to be doing, which is nothing. The fear for me was that McCain might have died. I'm sure she could be a competent VP (so could I. so could you. Douglas..I'm not sure about....he's too much like Cheney lol).
Originally Posted By DyGDisney ">>><<<As for the fence sitters (the "moderates" if you will), I believe she was a strong and important consideration for them.>>> No, I think old man McCain's ridiculous "I'm putting my campaign on hold to run to DC to FIX the economy" is where the fence sitters jumped off."<<< There were at least 2 people on this board, maybe more, who decided against McCain because of his VP pick. Multiply that percentage of LPers by the # of Americans. That's a lot of people who decided based on not wanting Sarah Palin.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney If you think Palin did NOT sway undecided folks, check out this thread --- a blast from the (not to distant) past: <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-99522-P-1.asp" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms...-P-1.asp</a> Pay most attention to #'s 5, 6, 8 and 22.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Let us just examine number 22 for a moment.... It is this: >>>I was pretty solidly a 3, needing more information about the tickets and their platforms. Then, upon learning more about Palin, I'm starting to lean more toward Obama/Biden. My strong belief is that Woman's Reproductive Health Issues are to be decided by the woman, her docotr, her partner, or parents (if she's under age) without the interference of government. She's against this freedom of choice. I have another strong belief that marriage is a word denoting a true and lasting commitment between two people who have a deep and abiding love regardless of the genders of the spouses. While it's said that she believes in equal benefits for gay couples, they can't use the word marriage because that only applies to mixed-gender couples. While being part of a group of second class citizens (women), she's fine and dandy with helping maintain the second class status of a nother group, (homosexuals) and the historical parallel to that is the racism that was fought against by the likes of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., the skin color divide. I'm more at #4 now.<<< Hummm..... almost everything that is said here is not only against what Palin believes but most of it is against the GOP outright, not just Palin and in fact some of it is even against what Obama believes. In light of this, I find it hard to believe that this poster's mind wasn't made up long before this post. Say what? Well she listed Palin's stance against abortion. That's GOP, not just Palin. She listed Palin's stance against Gay marriage... that's GOP and Obama as well. Then she says... >>>(homosexuals) and the historical parallel to that is the racism<<< WHAT?!?!?! I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that Martin Luther King Jr would be in favor of homosexuals especially in terms of marriage. What parallel is there? So, again, I don't see ANY mention of anything pro Obama, and if you are calling these posts "typical" of those fence sitters, I guess I am saying that there are less fence sitters than you want to believe there are. I think we all want to believe that Palin was the shot that sunk the ship. She wasn't. And no offense to the poster there either. It was a fine post. Nothing wrong with it at all, just that it doesn't apply to our argument here.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney Okay, what about post 8, it was pretty straight forward: "I'm between a 4 & 5 now. Like Mrs. ElderP, I enjoyed the DNC broadcasts very much and I've been looking forward to giving equal time to the RNC and upcoming debates before deciding. But the selection of Palin as VP has just about cemented my 5."
Originally Posted By DyGDisney BTW, what happened to World Disney? Haven't seen him on the boards lately.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad No idea. I have him on my Facebook friends, but he hasn't seemed to have been on there either much lately. I hope he is ok. I'll send him a FB note, he's a great guy! Fun, energetic...hope he's ok.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>If that makes me a moderate then so be it. I've heard Rush mention it was our fault the election was lost. And if the above is saying well we don't want you in the Democratic party. That's fine by me.<< Don't get me wrong, DAR. I don't care how someone identifies themselves politically. I still have a hard time calling myself a Democrat, even though realistically that's where I fit. I don't like the thought of being pigeon-holed into a specific group. But as you indicated in your beliefs, being a moderate is about how you feel about the issues. It isn't about "Both parties are the same." And hey, maybe sometime soon the parties will switch. Maybe Republicans will go more mainstream and Democrats will start getting dominated by Michael Moore and Daily Kos. But right now, that's not the case. So I think it's perfectly reasonable to say, "I'm a moderate, but I think the Democratic party is far more stable than the Republican party right now." And again, if someone genuinely doesn't feel that way, fine. But back it up with some examples and some data, instead of repeating ad nauseum, "There's crazies on both sides!" Until someone can demonstrate otherwise, Michael Moore isn't the Rush Limbaugh of the Democratic party. Barack Obama sure as hell isn't the George W. Bush of the Democratic party. And Joe Lieberman definitely isn't the Sarah Palin of the Democratic party. It doesn't mean you have to love these people or agree with them or vote for them or whatever. But there's still nuance and shades of gray. Michael Jordan and Carlos Boozer are both pro basketball players. Doesn't make them the same.
