Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< WDP&R did pitch a DtD concept to OLC who rejected it out-of-hand to build their version Ikspiari. >>> Leemac, based on what you know of the WDP&R plan for DtD and TDR, how would it have differed from how Ikspiari turned out? Do you think the financial results would have been different? What would have been the most important factor in why there would be a difference? Mr X, to answer your question, you always want to use an aggregate of some sort when coming up with a concrete argument, otherwise it's likely to crumble and fall apart under pressure. Seriously, by "in the aggregate" I mean reporting figures only collectively. For example, it can be said that TDR no longer reports per-park attendance figures, but only attendance for both parks in the aggregate. Here's an example of both aggregate and a "deep" number (or should I say fact). From the First Quarter 2006 financial report from WDC (which covers Oct-Dec 2005), they have this to say about the Parks & Resorts division, and the partially-owned international resorts: "Parks and Resorts: Parks and Resorts revenue for the quarter increased 13% to $2.4 billion and segment operating income increased 51% to $375 million. [stuff about domestic parks deleted] "Operating income growth at our international resorts reflected the first full quarter of theme park operations at Hong Kong Disneyland, and increased attendance, guest spending and hotel occupancy at Disneyland Resort Paris." Well, sounds like all good news, doesn't it? But what do we really know about the int'l parks? The only actual numbers they report are for the WDP&R division as a whole, and this is certainly going to be dominated by the domestic parks and resorts. Regarding int'l, the only thing we know is that there was at least *some* growth (it could have been only $1 with an outstanding 50th celebration domestically making up for the shortfall for all we know). Notice the differences in what they have to say about HKDL and DLP: For Paris, they reveal some "deep" facts that attendance, guest spending, and hotel occupancy are up. But regarding Hong Kong, all they say is that it was open Oct-Dec 05 and not open Oct-Dec 04. Well, that's not saying much, is it? In fact, HKDL could be well below expectations and this fact would remain hidden in the aggregate numbers that they publish for the division. I would think that if HKDL was ahead of projections, they could easy have mentioned that here in a vague manner just like they mentioned the good news at DLP, but they didn't. Another example of what I mean by a "deep" fact is when we were having a discussion a while back about what our best guess would be as far as average per-guest gate revenue at TDR vs DLR. I think it was leemac that said something like "TDR has the highest percentage of single-day tickets sold at a discount of any Disney resort." That may very well be true, but by revealing that single "deep" fact about gate revenue and not the others, you could end up with a very misleading situation (not to say that that was the intent here).
Originally Posted By leemac SuperDry I should point out that you can actually get the figures for the non-US parks as the Company has to prepare a reconciliation of non-GAAP financial measures to corresponding GAAP financial matters. So Parks & Resorts revenue/operating income needs to be shown less the revenue/operating income (or loss) (and more likely any adjustments) for those two parks as they aren't majority-owned. Sorry to get all technical on the accounting side. On the original TDR DtD it was to follow the garden-theme of DLR's version but obviously indoors. I know the footprint was smaller than Ikspiari is now as OLC wanted another hotel on that site too (they opted for the Mickey parking lot instead). I would have preferred to see DtD but then I hate Ikspiari with a passion for its awful layout and terrible tenant lineup (bar a few reasonable restaurants). The courtyard by the Disney Store is a perfect example. Terrible architecture with Planet Hollywood, GAP and that new-ish nightclub on the top floor. The whole thing is a mess. A horrible mess that you have to walk through from the Ambassador to get to the park. Considering what a cool structure Bon Voyage became (and a wonderful store to boot) it was so disappointing to see Ikspiari. It proved to me that OLC aren't that great when uncoupled from Disney. The weirdly flat and ackward Palm and Fountain hotels are another example of OLC architecture that doesn't have any real heart or storytelling. I guess it is all part of being a public company and having to satisfy shareholders with increased revenue and operating income. It is only logical that they would move away from their licencing deal with Disney. DtD HKDLR is meant to follow the DLR model. Nothing has been approved yet and it isn't likely to appear soon. In light of how quickly people can get to the Resort by MTR and how popular shopping is I would expect DtD to be a hit providing it has some unique offerings. A World of Disney would be huge I'm sure giving locals the opportunity to buy Disney products without having to enter the park. Throw in a few licencees (even those with multiple stores in the city already) like Giordino and Chow Sang Sang) and some unique offerings (maybe some real American brands particularly in the dining area) I'm sure it would work. It would add a vitality to the area and a wonderful corridor to the hotels.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I think it was leemac that said something like "TDR has the highest percentage of single-day tickets sold at a discount of any Disney resort." >> It was and it is! But then TDR sells more one-day tickets than any of the other resorts. But the MKC/sponsor discount is the most widely used anywhere in the Disney world. In light of the fact it is only 10% it is a good deal for the OLC. Also I suspect (without doing the math) that the 4-day ticket attracts a smaller discount against one-day as DLR and WDW.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Wow, some interesting conversation there fellas. It only shows that people here are CRAVING to talk about HKDL, but we just run out of stuff to talk about (like the park itself ). Anyway SD, you bring up some interesting points about Disney's non-involvement with Ikispari and the possible 'bitterness' that maybe associated with it and the fact Disney gets 0 from it. I knew it was their own creation of course and its really obvious that outside of the Disney Store, there is really nothing associated with Disney itself and its odd since the entire area is all Disney but you would never know it once you walk inside Ikspari, just strictly out of association. But, I don't know, I really like it and although I don't have any financials or anything to back it up, it does seem obvious it isn't doing that well when you can walk into Planet Hollywood or Rainforest cafe anytime of the day and those places are pretty much empty. Mr. X makes a good point though that a lot of the Japanese restaurants are full, but I doubt it truly off-balance the tenants that are struggling. Also, when everything pretty much shuts down around 8 or 9 on most nights, that tells you something is wrong. I remember when my friend came to visit me from Korea and I took him to TDS (LOVED IT ;D) and afterwards, he wanted to hang out in Ikspari after the park closed and everything was already shut down by then. He was surprised since he was from Florida, worked at WDW for a few seasons and DTD there didn't close until midnight or later. Of course, there's the train issue with Tokyo, but I think its more than that unfortunately. Leemac, I have to disagree with you (surprise, surprise ) on their choice of tenants. Now, I know I been pretty hard on you lately, but I'm just being honest here. Frankly, that's why I LIKE the place so much. There are REAL shops there. Music stores, supermarkets, GAP and other cloting stores and etc. That's my biggest problem with DTD in Anaheim, there is really nothing there for locals, there really isn't. It feels like its shopping for tourist and (don't get offended guys) White people. I mean, the ONLY clothing store there really is a BlueSilver shop. That's STRICTLY an O.C. store for most. I like the fact I can to go Ikspari and buy jeans, shoes, DVD's and maybe some groceries . While I was in L.A. for those months, I was always at DTD and took my mother to see movies there, but honestly outside of the book store (my favorite) and the Disney store (her favorite) there was nothing we were interested in as locals. Just too much high end stuff for tourists. Nothing wrong with that I guess, its plenty of other places in L.A. and O.C. to shop obviously, I just wish it was a place I can truly go and shop there as well. Most locals seem to like the restaurants and movie theater of course, but most probably wouldn't buy anything there. Also, Ikspari is huge and has lots and lots of cool stores to go in. I still remember when Mr. X and MagicalNezumi took me and my girlfriend to the train store and saw the big model train. I NEVER knew it was there because there are so many stores, I just passed it up before. The multi-level stuff makes it even cooler, but yeah, it's probably why so many are struggling at the same time, because its easy to miss stuff unless you hit every floor there. So, that's kind of my beef with DTD compared to Ikspari, but I certainly like the area, but just in complete disagreement about the tenants. Most of the tenants suck at DTD and I guess that's why one store is always leaving. And honestly, most of the big tenants WDW, DLR has the same as Ikspari: AMC movie theater, Disney store, Rainforest, Planet Hollywood and etc are in Ikspari already, so I don't see too much of a difference while having some cool Japanese stuff as well (The Hawaian Burger place is a nice touch ). Actually, that's what bothers me about Disney Village in France: It's TOO American. There's not really one thing in the whole place that is distintly French unlike Ikspari and everything has Ameican names and American tenants pretty much (you want to know why the French hate us so much....spend an hour at Disney Village ;D). But, it's opinion .
Originally Posted By leemac <<There are REAL shops there.>> We definitely won't agree on that. DtD should be a unique experience like DtD at DLR/WDW in my view. If it has chain stores they should be unique or different. I can't stand her but the Anne Geddes store at DLR is unique. Add in Compass and the good dining and it makes it different to visting your standard mall. I really can't stand Ikpsiari for that reason. So generic. I'd prefer to wander the streets of Ginza or Shibuya or Shinjuku for that matter.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN ^^^Of course!! They have Tower records and HMV's!!! What have they got at Ikspiari...? Shiseido?? Please! I also can't stand that Ikspiari (as Leemac says) is full of generic stores... like Disney Store, Benetton, Couch and the likes.. >>I am under the impression that Chinese people don't have particularly adventurous palates, at least with regards to foreign cuisine. >> Is that why Kowloon's McDonald's are so popular and crowded most of the time???
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^^See, we strictly have to agree to disagree then. Sure, I also believe that the stores should be unique and a little different, but not to the point where you don't really want to buy anything (or can afford it ). Actually, its funny, the Anne Geddes store is a perfect example I was thinking about you mentioned. When my mother went in there (she collects dolls), she was a little interested, but it was TOO freaky and expensive. How many people want to pay $125+ for a doll? That was the starting price if I remembered. I guess its enough because its still there, but we'll see in 6 months time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DTD should have Foot Lockers and Targets obviously, but just more tangible and practicle stores at the same time. What's wrong with having a Jeans store or a nice shoe store along with all the other stuff there? It will give locals a reason to go as well as the tourists and its the reason why I like Ikspari so much. But yes, we just have to agree to disagree on this one I think .
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>Anne Geddes store<< Anyone who has been seen in the company of Celine Dion has GOT TO GO!
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>Seriously, by "in the aggregate" I mean reporting figures only collectively.>>> I see. Thanks! >>>I really can't stand Ikpsiari for that reason. So generic. I'd prefer to wander the streets of Ginza or Shibuya or Shinjuku for that matter.<<< Sure, downtown Tokyo is cooler and has more variety, but GENERIC? Wow, you really do hate TDR don't you? Okay, I agree that Ikspiari is not "Disneyish", and I'd have preferred DTD too, and I'll agree about the architecture as well (I really HATE how it's "indoor/outdoor" so on bad weather days you end up getting RAINED on walking through the place even though you are "indoors" and would look like a moron if you kept your umbrella up)... But, GENERIC? TERRIBLE tenent lineup? Geez, I can't see how you feel that way. As WD mentioned, the train shop and cool little specialty shops are awsome (offhand, I recall a hawaiian shop, and dogwear shop, a bead shop, a calidoscope shop, a stationary store, a baseball card shop, and many others just in that little corner. Find me a mall in America that can provide THAT kinda variety! Then you've got Gap, Eddie Bauer, Levis, Come sa ism, Diesel, Eagle, and tons of other clothing shops. A maxed out movie theater. A DVD store. A music store. In short, I can think of no more fun mall in the WORLD to window shop than Ikspiari. It really has a little bit of everything. And, I don't know if you were including dining in your list of "terrible tenents", but come ON. The dining at Ikspiari is top notch and has EVERYTHING you could want to eat. Planet Hollywood and Rainforest for the homesick such as myself, Monsoon (southeast asian), Seriumon (Chinese), Trail and Track (international), a German restaurant, an Italian restauraunt, an elegant cigar bar, several little drinking holes. Oh yeah, and a bunch of Japanese restaurants to chose from, including sushi, tonkatsu, shabu-shabu, the list goes on. You could dine every day of the month at Ikspiari and not get bored with the options! Again, just off the top of my head here, and I DO agree with some of the critisism, but I think calling the offerings there "terrible" is a bit silly.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>It feels like its shopping for tourist and (don't get offended guys) White people.<<< Why's it always gotta be about color with you man? Geez, take your poison over to world events, will ya!?
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "DtD should be a unique experience like DtD at DLR/WDW in my view." Unique? How? When DD, in Florida, was built in the mid-1970s, it was unique. Catered to mostly locals, but also the tourist trade with high-end boutiques that sold all kind of merchandise. But today? All I see are a bunch of Disney shops selling the exact same merchandise you can buy at every park and resort locations. And then we have McDonald's, Ghiardelli, Rainforest Cafe, Planet Hollywood, Wetzel's, Pucks, AMC etc. That to me speaks of generic, anywhere kind of place. DD in Anaheim looks nicer and flows a whole lot more natural than WDW's, but it still feels pretty generic to me.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN One more question.. weren't the undeveloped areas along side the promenade between the HKDL Hotel and the MRT station and the main entrance into the park supposed to be slated for a DTD-like district? I thought I saw that in the EPCOT preview of HKDL.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< All I see are a bunch of Disney shops selling the exact same merchandise you can buy at every park and resort locations. >>> Kind of like the merchandise in the US parks, eh? Most specialty stores are gone and replaced with yet another wall of Mickey plushes. Regarding Ikspiari, one thing I was disappointed with was a lack of an electronics store of any kind, specifically camera stuff. I went to the camera store in TDL which was proported to have "all of your photography needs" and they didn't even have lens tissue. Maybe most people just use their sleeve or a napkin to clean their lenses, but that's a great way to get a scratch. I can kind of understand a very limited supply in the parks itself, but no electronics at Ikspiari? You could buy all sorts of women's clothing, candles, and all sorts of other knick-knacks, but not an iPod or digital camera, both of which I can see as being needed by someone staying on-site on vacation.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>I can kind of understand a very limited supply in the parks itself, but no electronics at Ikspiari? You could buy all sorts of women's clothing, candles, and all sorts of other knick-knacks, but not an iPod or digital camera<<< Interesting point, SD. I wonder why not, since there are so many electronics shops everywhere else. Perhaps they just figured they couldn't compete? Personally, when I want electronics I just go downtown to the Akihabara electric town, maybe they figured that's what everyone else would do to. Never thought about that before though (there are lots of electronics shops around Shin-Urayasu anyway, so for local needs I just go there).
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Nobody uses lense "tissue" anymore SuperDry. WE do it with cloths. >>> A lens cloth would have been fine as well. I forgot to pack mine, but could buy neither at the resort. I was surprised to at least find a memory stick at the camera store at TDS. Regarding electronics, I'm thinking of the situation where someone is staying at the resort for a few days, and break their camera, or forgot it at home. If you're paid to stay on-site for a few days, the last thing you want to do is trek back to Akihabara to get something. That's going to take at least 3 hours. Plus, I would imagine that a lot of people staying on-site are from other areas of Japan and know less about how to get to Akihabara than I do. But that's just as it seems to me.
Originally Posted By Mr X I agree, it seems a strange thing to leave out, considering what you said about hotel guests (personally, being a local I never give much thought to the needs of people JUST staying in Maihama, since I just see that zone as "Disney", and go elsewhere for most of my needs that aren't entertainment oriented).
Originally Posted By leemac <<All I see are a bunch of Disney shops selling the exact same merchandise you can buy at every park and resort locations. And then we have McDonald's, Ghiardelli, Rainforest Cafe, Planet Hollywood, Wetzel's, Pucks, AMC etc. That to me speaks of generic, anywhere kind of place.>> Of course because it fits with your "substandard" comments about the whole of WDW. DLR's DtD is more effective and has a more attractive tenant lineup but WDW has Cirque, AMC and DisneyQuest for entertainment, Bongo's, HoB and a very good Puck's in the West Side and some fun retail stuff. It appeals to tourists hence the huge crowds there from 11am onwards. I prefered the architectural style of the old Village but the stores weren't all that. Why buy Ralph Lauren from Disney when you could get it cheaper elsewhere.
