Originally Posted By Mr X Further info on the vile person we now know to be Pamela Pilger, Right Winger extraordinaire. She's a member of the Encounter Community Church, a "Foursquare Church" which believes in faith healing (thus, why reform health care?). Oh, and she works for the EPA. Um...that means she gets government health care, does it not? Nice. Still waiting for an apology William, for your comment about be being ignorant and all even though I was 100% correct? (not holding my breath on that one though lol)
Originally Posted By Mr X Further info on the vile person we now know to be Pamela Pilger, Right Winger extraordinaire. She's a member of the Encounter Community Church, a "Foursquare Church" which believes in faith healing (thus, why reform health care?). Oh, and she works for the EPA. Um...that means she gets government health care, does it not? Nice. Still waiting for an apology William, for your comment about be being ignorant and all even though I was 100% correct? (not holding my breath on that one though lol)
Originally Posted By Mr X <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcRr5xA-K80&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgawker%2Ecom%2F5340436%2Fmeet%2Dpamela%2Dpilger%2Dthe%2Dcrazy%2Dlady%2Dwho%2Dyelled%2Dheil%2Dhitler%2Dat%2Da%2Djewish%2Dsupporter%2Dof%2Dhealth%2Dcare%2Dreform&feature=player_embedded" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...embedded</a> More from her. I love the argument that "healthcare is not a right". If that's so true, why do all our prisoners have the right to health care? Couldn't we save a lot of money if we just let them rot?
Originally Posted By mawnck Oh Lordy. Foursquare - that's Aimee Semple McPherson's outfit. (You should read up on her, X. You'd get a kick out of it.) The church is definitely conservative, but relatively harmless, AFAIK, and they do seem to walk the walk, nutty YouTube lady notwithstanding. I doubt they're all that thrilled to have her associated with them. They are not opposed to "normal" healthcare in the slightest: <a href="http://www.foursquarechurch.org/articles/53,1.html" target="_blank">http://www.foursquarechurch.or...3,1.html</a> I can't find anything about their views on healthcare reform, so they must not be TOO against it.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< YouTube linked to in #22 >>> Oh, brother. <<< Oh, and she works for the EPA. Um...that means she gets government health care, does it not? >>> Really? She's a federal government employee? She says in the video that "health care does not need to be taken over by the government," yet she says this from a position where HER health care is being paid for by the government? Assuming the assertion that she's a federal gov't employee is true, let's take a look at the health care benefits she gets: <a href="http://www.opm.gov/INSURE/HEALTH/INDEX.ASP" target="_blank">http://www.opm.gov/INSURE/HEAL...NDEX.ASP</a> "Federal employees, retirees and their survivors enjoy the widest selection of health plans in the country. You can choose from among Consumer-Driven and High Deductible plans that offer catastrophic risk protection with higher deductibles, health savings/reimbursable accounts and lower premiums, or Fee-for-Service (FFS) plans, and their Preferred Provider Organizations (PPO), or Health Maintenance Organizations (HMO) if you live (or sometimes if you work) within the area serviced by the plan." Sounds pretty nice to me. No wonder she doesn't want things to change. Then, again in the video link in #22, she goes on to say: "My husband doesn't have insurance... My husband has 2 jobs, no he has 3 jobs, ... and he doesn't have health care." So, are we to believe that if her husband got sick tomorrow, he'd be on his own and have to pay for all care out of pocket? Or, is it more likely that he actually does have health care as the spouse of a federal employee, even though his job doesn't provide it to him directly? Maybe that's the solution to the health care crisis - every family should have at least one member be a federal government employee. Then everyone would be covered. Yet, this very same person seems to think that the government isn't the solution to problems. I guess the government isn't the solution to OTHER people's problems, even though it might have been a great solution for her. I think I might need some health care right now, as I'm about to throw up.
Originally Posted By Sara Tonin SuperDry, that's what I've been saying...the government is already in the healthcare business
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Not only is it in the business, it insures the two most expensive groups of people to insure: the elderly and the very poor. Throw in the military in time of war, and you have the three most expensive groups of people to insure. If the government insured more people outside those groups, the risk is spread among more people (and healthier people) and cost per person goes down. That's Insurance 101. And without the profit motive, cost goes down further. And with ability to do things like get bulk pricing for drugs (which the VA already does but Republicans made sure the Medicare Part D Bill specifically disallowed at the behest of their drug-company masters), price goes down further.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< SuperDry, that's what I've been saying...the government is already in the healthcare business >>> Perhaps you have. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to put into participating in the other health care threads here, although I hope to this weekend. To expand on what you said above, and at the risk of completely repeating what you may have said on another thread, let me point out: The federal government already is involved in the health care business. And, it's not just the plan that Congress has that we hear talked about a lot, but also in several other ways on a MASSIVE scale. The federal plans exist in several different forms: - Medicare: single-payer, offering universal coverage for those 65 or older, some involvement of private insurance companies, and with care provided for by the private sector - VA: single-payer, gov't-administered payment, gov't-operated care. - Federal employees: wide choice of insurers and different plan types, private-sector care. Mr X has already provided us a link in another thread to someone that's adamantly against "Obamacare" but at the same stated that veterans should have better care than the general public because they deserve it and have earned it, not realizing that he tacitly admitted that the VA model above provides better care than a great many private citizens have. Then, we have the lady from this thread, who if the report is true is a federal employee, and therefore has access to the wide option of plans that I linked to in #24. But she got so riled up at an immigrant from Israel who was pointing out that that country has universal coverage and that he thinks the US should have it as well, that she shouts Heil Hitler to him. Then, at many of these town hall meetings around the country where people are being disruptive about health care, one of the surprising groups of people against change are people over 65. That is, people that universally as a group already have federal medical coverage through Medicare, and don't want anything done that will upset their current arrangements. Why is it that so many of these people, armed with talking points about keeping the gov't out of health care, themselves already are receiving health care from the gov't and like it so much they don't want any changes?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Why is it that so many of these people, armed with talking points about keeping the gov't out of health care, themselves already are receiving health care from the gov't and like it so much they don't want any changes?>> The majority of these people are on Medicare. They're over 65 years of age. Uneducated white males over 65 comprise the largest viewing demographic for Fox News. They are not thinking for themselves. They expect Fox News to do it for them. And we all know (thanks to Darkfear) about the boatloads of paranoia Fox News has been feeding their viewers, about how the big bad Obama administration is gonna take away their precious Medicare and give it to undocumented workers for abortions. If it weren't for the hopelessly uneducated and terminally stupid citizens in this country, the GOP would be as irrelevant as the Whigs.
Originally Posted By DAR <<If it weren't for the hopelessly uneducated and terminally stupid citizens in this country>> And by engaging in personal attacks yourself, similar to the Nazi talk proves that you really don't have an argumentative leg to stand on yourself. Just think about that.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>And by engaging in personal attacks yourself, similar to the Nazi talk proves that you really don't have an argumentative leg to stand on yourself. Just think about that.<< You're seeing the reaction to the attacks started by Republicans, encouraged by the Republican party, and flamed by conservative talk radio and television. It's a lose/lose situation for Democrats. If they remain polite, they lose because Americans ARE naive enough to believe this stupidity, and then they look weak on top of it. If they fight back, we hear about how they're sinking to the level of the other side and aren't being dignified enough. Perhaps someone could spell out the exact proper response from Democrats when confronted with this nonsense.
Originally Posted By ecdc And BTW, if Republicans or, yes, people like you DAR, had been more willing to denounce the whole "Hitler" thing unequivocally, maybe you'd have more of a leg to stand on. Instead, the best we get is, "Well, I don't think people should compare Obama to Hitler BUT...!" followed by a lengthy diatribe about how Bush got it too, or how Democrats are just as bad, or how both sides are the same.
Originally Posted By DAR I've never once said the Hitler comparisons where appropriate, in fact they're embarrassing.
Originally Posted By mawnck Here's how I see it, DAR. We ARE dealing with "hopelessly uneducated and terminally stupid citizens." These are the people who form their opinion without allowing the facts to get in the way. These are the classy suckers that would walk up to an Israeli ON CAMERA and say "Heil Hitler" and consider that a patriotic act. I do not consider you or WahooSkipper - to name a couple - to be in that category. You think for yourselves and make rational arguments to support your positions. While I don't expect you to necessarily support Obama's policies (I don't either in a lot of cases), I don't understand why you would still support the GOP in any way shape or form. I also don't consider MOST of the GOP leadership or the media noise machine to be in that category. They're in an even worse category - they deliberately take advantage of the first bunch, manipulating them for their own personal gain, doing (so far) unknowable damage to their own country in the process. But yes, I do think the time has come for personal attacks. Our country really is at stake. Since reason and logic are no longer an option, we have to use "stronger" measures to make sure these horrible "patriots" never come to any sort of power in the USA. For that reason, don't expect ANY respect whatsoever from me for the likes of Darkbeer. I don't consider any of his opinions worth the bits they're transmitted on. I don't want to be his friend, I don't want to know him personally, I don't want to ever meet him at Disneyland ... because I think if trends continue, the day may come when he and I are literally shooting at each other for control of this nation. That sounds extremist? Watch the video in post 1 again. Do you want her and her buddies in charge? How far will you go to stop her?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>the day may come when he and I are literally shooting at each other for control of this nation<< Only if you try and claim Disneyland's birthday is July 17. That gets him madder'n a wet hornet.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<And by engaging in personal attacks yourself, similar to the Nazi talk proves that you really don't have an argumentative leg to stand on yourself. Just think about that.>> It's not a personal attack. It's stating a simple truth. If you wish to see it as a personal attack, then perhaps you should be the one to ask yourself why. A large swath of the American citizenry is uneducated. Fact. An even larger swatch of the American citizenry is just plain stupid. Don't believe me? Watch archived "JayWalking" on YouTube. Read the results from "smarter than a fifth grader" kinds of surveys done the past decade. The lack of knowledge for basic history, geography, and civics is appalling. Look at the survey recently conducted with registered Republicans. Only 76% of Republicans surveyed believed Medicare was a government run health care program. That's only 3 out 4. The other 24% believed that it was NOT a government run health care program (14%) or they were not sure (10%). That's ridiculous! These people were registered old-enough-to-vote Republican adults, and only 3 out 4 knew that Medicare was government health care. These are the 65 and older crowd holding up signs at the Town Halls that proclaim, "NO GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE." But they do not realize that their Medicare program which they love and adore IS government run health care! These people represent the very definition of being "hopelessly uneducated and terminally stupid." These people don't think for themselves, they don't bother to learn about the world around them. And way too many of these folks are PROUD of their ignorance, as witnessed by THEIR PERSONAL ATTACKS against "elitist" politicians and pundits from those "pinko commie liberal" ivy league universities. Equating Obama to "Hitler" is a personal attack. Calling someone stupid who rails against government run health care while not realizing that their Medicare qualifies as such is not a personal attack. It's just stating the truth.
Originally Posted By mele <<<<If it weren't for the hopelessly uneducated and terminally stupid citizens in this country>>>> Unless you self-identify with this statement, how is it "personal"?
