Originally Posted By X-san ***What really matters is gaining entry into Heaven.*** Funny, I always thought the idea was to WANT to be a good and moral person because it's the right thing to do and would please god. And then, of course, as a benefit god will let you into heaven (but that should never be the underlying goal, I thought). To say otherwise is, really, to indicate a complete lack of real moral fiber.
Originally Posted By X-san Great post, Christie! ***Jesus himself had many women in his inner circle, most famously Mary and Martha, and refused to condemn a woman for adultery when the religious leaders of the day demanded that she alone should pay the price. Jesus instead challenged the men there to examine their own lives and realize that this woman was no more guilty than they were. This message of equality is the one that is often ignored by the secular world*** Well, I can understand your point but I wouldn't go so far as to say that most in the secular world (certainly myself included) ignore what Jesus taught. Obviously at the very LEAST he was an awesome, holy, and inspirational human being (whether or not he is "god" is certainly at issue, but do many people really attack his righteous and holy message?). ***instead the church is portrayed as backwards and sexist*** Your own church notwithstanding, I think it's fair to say that many christian churches don't manage to live up to their founder in his most excellent wisdom and compassion.
Originally Posted By christiemarsh88 <<<(whether or not he is "god" is certainly at issue, but do many people really attack his righteous and holy message?).>>> I'm not trying to preach to you or convert you, but just chew on this: You're right--very few people would deny that Jesus was a good person, and promoted a righteous message. But when you add the fact that he claimed to be God (Matthew 26:63) into the equation, it means that he must have been one of three things: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord. C.S. Lewis wrote about this idea in his book Mere Christianity: "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us." Interesting thought, no?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 With all respect to Lewis, and as one who believes Jesus was/is divine, I can also understand people who don't believe that but consider him as a great human teacher who (perhaps because his teachings were so good) deluded himself into thinking he was the son of God. That wouldn't make him a lunatic, as one can be highly deluded but still fully functioning. That's not what *I* believe, but Lewis' dichotomy does not allow for the wide variation in human delusion.
Originally Posted By X-san It is an interesting quote though, Christie. Don't some Christians have a problem with C.S. Lewis though? I seem to remember some evangelical sites calling him and his works "satans tools".
Originally Posted By christiemarsh88 He was quoted several times alluding to, and even declaring outright, his relationship to God. Three of the four gospels give an account of this same specific instance that I mentioned earlier (Mark 14:60-62, Matthew 26: 63-65, and Luke 22:67-70, if you're interested). When lots of different authors all confirmed the same statements, the "misquoted" theory gets a little shaky, IMHO. But, in the end, you just take some things on faith. If I really understood everything and had direct, undeniable proof, where would the mystery in life be?
Originally Posted By X-san ***If I really understood everything and had direct, undeniable proof, where would the mystery in life be? *** Well, sure. But consider this. If you had the option of trading this life for one 2000 years ago where you actually got to MEET and TALK TO Jesus, would you take that option? ***When lots of different authors all confirmed the same statements, the "misquoted" theory gets a little shaky, IMHO.*** I'm not implying that he was, actually. I was just throwing out the idea that your "3" possibilities were open for interpretation. And even if I were to argue misinterpretation or outright misquoting, I think I'd get the edge on that one since the book was written eons ago and has been translated and interpreted and rewritten over and over again. How well do the words of three guys stand up over centuries anyway? And who the heck knows how many people "interpreted" what they said in whatever ways they wanted to? Are there any original copies around for us to peruse?
Originally Posted By christiemarsh88 <<<Don't some Christians have a problem with C.S. Lewis though? I seem to remember some evangelical sites calling him and his works "satans tools".>>> I've never heard that, but it wouldn't surprise me. Like with any group, there are many different viewpoints among Christians. I actually looked this up, and I found a couple of sites about Lewis' "heresy". These people certainly believe strongly what they're saying, but they seem to have some sort of ulterior motive: "Lewis went to Hell because he invented a new god, and he ended his life a Taoist. We will prove it here." I'm fairly sure this viewpoint is in the minority.
Originally Posted By mele Some people believe that we are ALL children of God, that we all have his divinity in us*, and that by accepting this, we find peace and gain entrance Heaven. So, Jesus saying it over and over again wouldn't make him delusional. Maybe everyone else is delusional for forgetting that we're children of God, we're all divine and yet we behave as if we are not. *not to mean that we are all Gods, but that we are all a part of Him
Originally Posted By teddibubbles I think it is mostly a sexiest thing. then a issue of any chruch. I have been hammered my earthy father .of how worthless I am being a girl. my whole life! I am a deep thinker. and have pondered on this much in my life. I suppose that his aditude fromed much of my view of myself. as we long for our parents approval! so iv spent much of my life feeling i was all ways a low specimen under a man. the cool thing is when in one of my downs on myself.. my husband pointed this out to me. I was down about the MAN thing in the bible.. and hubby said.. I am a man too! a Womb man. and the word says. God is no respecter of persons. he doesn't put one person above another! and one time I was hearing ( the slightly chauvinistic wrightings of apostle Paul ) submit submit submit . and I had to admit.. that was a hard thing to do for me! but then I found passages about husbands love your wifes as Christ loved the church. my husband has given me the freedom of feeling his equal! ( he is the headship... but im not a underling! as far as churches one of my non bible thoughts. is God or Creator of All known by different names.. as long as people of caltures worship the true God. = creator of all. There is a spirit of peace. that passes all understanding.. that can go beond this realm. that fulfills this hole inside of us all.. the seeking of this love is imbedded stongly in us. maybe we women . are just more in touch with our feelings.. I know that when The lord came to me.. I was as undeserving of that act. at that day then any other time. but the spirt of grace = unmerited love.. surpassed any THING..or Relationship I have ever known.. and the eqality of this man woman thing ..never entered there.. I only know.. that I have need of this kind of love.. that looks at this VERY flawed person.. yet he took the time to shine this peace upon ME! a lowly woman! I just know.. there is a purpose for my existence.. and why no mater what.. I will come and seek. this greater love.. that God as shined down Even on woman kind too! that maybe why we keep coming back!
Originally Posted By christiemarsh88 <<<If you had the option of trading this life for one 2000 years ago where you actually got to MEET and TALK TO Jesus, would you take that option?>>> HECK YES! And no, there are no original copies of the scriptures, and even if there were I sure wouldn't be able to read them. But it just goes back to that faith thing.
Originally Posted By christiemarsh88 <<<he is the headship... but im not a underling!>>> teddibubbles, this made me think of a line from that great theological work..."My Big Fat Greek Wedding": "The man is the head, but the woman is the neck. And she can turn the head any way she wants." Nothing to do with religion, but I just wanted to share that with anyone who hadn't heard it.
Originally Posted By teddibubbles lol yup I rember that saying from the movie. lol its always been hard for me. because I am more of a leader then follower.. and I can get mighty radical
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Funny, I always thought the idea was to WANT to be a good and moral person because it's the right thing to do and would please god. And then, of course, as a benefit god will let you into heaven (but that should never be the underlying goal, I thought). To say otherwise is, really, to indicate a complete lack of real moral fiber." They seem to go hand in hand I don't see a problem.
Originally Posted By X-san Do they go hand in hand? I'm not so sure. According to some, killing innocent people in a religious war is the ticket to heaven. Some might object to that morally, and chose to reject heaven as a consequence (if that particular faith happens to be correct, of course). Put it this way, Passholder, if saving the life of your child meant you had to reject heaven forever (perhaps not as abstract a dilema for some, such as religions which reject blood transfusions and such), would you do it? I know I would.
Originally Posted By X-san Fine, a loved one then. Point is the original assertion was "What really matters is gaining entry into Heaven.", and I disagree. Some things are more important than that, and part of the problem with religion is that some people twist "getting into heaven" into all sorts of morally reprehensible actions, claiming "well, that's the only way, you see".
