Originally Posted By DlandDug I think the problem here is not whether one opinion is right or wrong, but rather about trying to argue that Disney has abandoned an ideal that actually never really existed. When Walt Disney built Disneyland, he had his designers create a meticulously crafted Main STreet USA, detailed right down to the hitching posts on the curbs (despite the fact that no one would be tying up horses there). But at the end of the street, in full view of the guests, he placed a fairytale castle. In 1959 he added a copy of the Matterhorn, also in full view of Main Street. And wrapping around the mountain was a fururistic monorail, gliding past the castle, and in full view of the castle courtyard. Of course, in 1956 the Skyway was added, so guests in the fairytale precincts of Fantasyland were already seeing a mechanical sky ride, headed right over the pirate ship, carousel, and miniature structures of Storybook Land. Meanwhile, over in Frontierland, the river traffic simultaneously included (at Walt's express insistence) a steamboat, a square rigged sailing ship, keel boats and canoes. And rafts. Never mind that some were designed for Rivers, others for the ocean, and others for mountain streams. Don't get me started on the interiors. In Walt's day, Tomorrowland had a French art market, Main Street had a modern display of pharmaceuticals (complete with a giant cell), and Adventureland had a Polynesian Review. (Oh wait-- that last one actually fits! How'd that happen?)
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan So Doug are you saying that it doesn't matter what goes where? And who is to blame for some of us wishing there were more attention to theme and detail? Why, Disney itself, of course. Through books and television shows there have been famous anecdotes like Walt being annoyed by the site of a cast member in western wear crossing through Tomorrowland. Or tales of him being upset that all 3 colors of Monorail weren't operating on a slow day, because SHOW mattered. It wasn't that these various lands and themes were walled off strictly from each other, but that they flowed a little more seamlessly than is often the case now.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Doug a lot of the things that you are pointing out are certainly valid, however as the park changed, grew and became more sophisticated under Walt Disney's watch much of those things were changed or removed. Tomorrowland '67, is an example. Another example are the utilidors that were built underneath the MK at WDW that prevented guests from seeing off duty costumed cast members in the wrong land. "others for the ocean..." If you mean the The Columbia, the real real vessel, a privately owned ship, was built on a river in inland Norwell, Massachusetts. It also sailed into the Columbia River. Again, the context of the story is sound. "...because SHOW mattered." I couldn't have said it better myself.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>So Doug are you saying that it doesn't matter what goes where?<< Uh, no. >>Another example are the utilidors that were built underneath the MK at WDW that prevented guests from seeing off duty costumed cast members in the wrong land.<< And yet you can see the thatched roof of Tropical Serenade from the riverfront of Frontierland. For that matter, you can see Cinderella Castle from virtually anywhere in the MK (unless you're indoors). The point isn't that it doesn't matter, or that it shouldn't matter. But you shouldn't hold up some mythical standard that never existed and deplore what is going on today on that basis.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "And yet you can see the thatched roof of Tropical Serenade from the riverfront of Frontierland. For that matter, you can see Cinderella Castle from virtually anywhere in the MK (unless you're indoors)." The Castle at WDW was deliberately made taller so the guests would have a visual reference point. Even so, I don't get your point. None of that is even remotely what I'm talking about. "The point isn't that it doesn't matter, or that it shouldn't matter. But you shouldn't hold up some mythical standard that never existed and deplore what is going on today on that basis." Not sure if you're directing this at me or not, but if you are I think you've completely taken this way beyond what I was trying to say.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 ""The point isn't that it doesn't matter, or that it shouldn't matter. But you shouldn't hold up some mythical standard that never existed and deplore what is going on today on that basis." I think the question is one of degree.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>you shouldn't hold up some mythical standard that never existed<< What 'mythical' standard am I holding up that never existed?
Originally Posted By SFH Fantasyland is mostly based on Europe. Pooh would work there. Bear Country was an extension of Frontierland, making it problematic to leave Frontierland, walk through New Orleans Square, and then back into "Frontierland". When Splash Mountain was added and it became Critter Country, it was a good extension of "The South" as connected to New Orleans Square. Then Pooh was added, messing it all up. Pooh was added there rather than Fantasyland not for artistic reasons, but for financial reasons. Disney figured it was less expensive to adapt the infrastructure/building in place for the County Bear Playhouse rather than doing something like bulldozing what was was left of the old Motor Boat Cruise area and building a whole new show building.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Al Lutz's description of at least one new Carsland store sounds like it may be a throwback to New Orleans Square's antique shop: "On the opposite corner from Flo's, Lizzy's store will be the main gift shop for Cars Land, and Disneyland's merchandising department has been tasked by John Lasseter to come up with some truly eclectic and funky offerings for sale in this funky roadside store. You must remember that John Lasseter, is a huge Disneyland fan and he remembers well the genteel and unique collections for sale in the old One-Of-A-Kind shop in New Orleans Square. The Curios shop should have a similar vibe, but themed to roadside Americana. The wild success of the elaborately themed and unique merchandise in the new Harry Potter area of Universal's Islands of Adventure has not been lost on the Disneyland merchandise planners, and John Lasseter wants this shop to be an attraction in itself."
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Hopefully CC's kids will be out of their strollers before it opens.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>I think the question is one of degree.<< Oh yeah. And I was not addressing anyone specifically, just the dogmatic tendency (woof! woof!) to make absolute statements about how things should be themed.
Originally Posted By DlandDug Back to the OP, I finally wandered into the Clothiers today. I did get some photos and will try to get them up somewhere where they can be seen. This whole argument is ridiculous. Sorry, I meant to say RIDICULOUS. The shop looks great. I am inclined to believe the light fixtures haven't been installed yet (although I am not certain). But I did note that there are a number of blanking panels in the ceiling that correspond almost exactly with the location of the fixtures. It is not unlikely they were sent out for cleaning and refurbishing-- or replacement fixtures have not yet arrived. All props have been installed in the attic area (the "empty" area just below the ceiling) and it looks much classier than it did before. The new floor plan is much, much better, albeit more streamlined than I would like. But it is much better for the amount of traffic this shop generates. The color scheme is NOT vivid pink-- I noted that in my camera the ambient light tended to throw a pink cast on the woodwork. When I shot with flash, the subdued yellow/tan color shows up nicely. There's nothing remotely "princessy" about the decor. Can't do a thing about the merchandise, but the Show Quality team hit another home run, in my considered opinion. This shop looks good for another ten to twenty years.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Awesome! Looked good in the photos so glad to hear the eyewitness report. : )
Originally Posted By FerretAfros We got routed through the shop on Tuesday on the way in to the Halloween party (yes, they had blocked off Main Street to allow one-way traffic on each side to clear the park, and they routed our side through the store to create a bottle neck to check wrist bands...and sell stuff, I'm sure0, and I thought it looked fine. I would call the decor more Edwardian or Classical Revival than Victorian, but that's kind of splitting hairs. I don't really like how the style of the outside doesn't really match the inside. There are other buildings on Main Street that match this interior much better (the one with the porch and the music store come to mind), but it just doesn't seem to match outside and in. I think that it's still very much in the theme of Main Street, but there was just so much going on with architecture at the time that there's a fairly wide variety of styles. Overall, it's fine. The store is laid out better for realistic traffic patterns, and looks like a 2010 take on Victorian. While it has been updated to modern tastes, it is still Victorian at the core of it. WDW's Main Street is also Victorian-themed, but there is also a heavy influence of late-60's/early-70's styles. Comparing the various Main Streets at Disney's various parks shows how the look of 'Victorian' has also changed through the years. This is just the most recent version of that look.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance "Hopefully CC's kids will be out of their strollers before it opens. " It's when they're out of the strollers and running rampant that you have to worry, but that won't be open for what another year and a half? I'll work on maturing them in the mean time, lol.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "When I was a kid, I played with Tonka Trucks and Hot Wheels, but not at the same time. They existed in different worlds from each other. It was my inner sense of scale and proportion at work." You're the anti-Andy (Toy Story).
