Originally Posted By dshyates Hey, whats all the complainin' about. You have to pay good money for that kinda service downtown.
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider >>I don't know about Florida, but in Georgia it is a CRIME to "pat" someone on the butt. And that is grounds for immediate termination at the company I work for ( a major phone company ).<< In most states an unwanted pat on the back is considered a crime too - would you arrest/fire someone for that? Most states "Battery" is any form of harmful, unwanted touching - the problem is "Harmful" has become so loose these days because of people that think this person should be instantly fired. I mean why not lop off her hands too, the villain! I'm sure we all break some sort of law EVERY day if you've ever read some of the laws that are on the books. I'm not saying she shouldn't be reprimanded but geez fire her? That's a little extreme... This is what's wrong with America now, (well one of the things aside from poverty and problems in education etc.) there's so much Political Correctness and Moral Outrage at EVERY SINGLE LITTLE thing. If she was groping the front of the man's pants I could see the outrage - but a pat on the butt warrants actions that could seriously negatively affect her life? What if she's a student on some college work experience and she's only in Florida to work for Disney and that's where she lives? She gets fired for patting a guy on the butt and now she has to fly home because now she has no where to live or any source of income and she can't go back to school because she's not scheduled for classes or dorms or whatever. A manager should probably warn her first or suspend her but termination is extreme. The whole thing about "I work at this company and we do this" means just about nothing to me - different companies do different things and just because your company is iron fisted all companies should be? If people keep talking like this it won't be long until we start reading "A CM LOOKED AT ME FUNNY-FIRE THAT EVIL CREATURE!!" Sexual Harassment is wrong and if the man felt he was being harassed he should report it. If he felt that way then yes this is sexual harassment and she should be harshly reprimanded/fired - but I don't think that's the case. They're probably friends and it was just their interaction, it doesn't make it appropriate for a Disney park but it doesn't make it this huge injustice either. If the guy was seriously offended and made to feel uncomfortable working in that kind of environment fire her, if her only crime was making a guest feel awkward by seeing an inappropriate but friendly gesture then punish her but don't give her the boot. It's not the kind of thing I'd expect to see in a Disney Park but I don't think I'd think twice about it let alone call for immediate termination. That's my opinion and you can have yours but it's not like she touched you and thus no crime was committed against you so I fail to see the outrage.
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider ^^ Note: the "You" at the end wasn't to anyone in particular despite the beginning being in response to Tom's post. It was more of a general "You" to anyone reading who may feelit applies to them.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Guys, its a crime! Unless of course you believe that laws are only for the little people.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom And why are you making excuses for the perp? OK, so the victim probably wasn't traumatized from the experience, that still doesn't give ANYONE the right to go around gropping or inappropriately touching someone else. Perps everywhere constantly say things like "I was just joking, it wasn't a big deal". I have worked with women who were actively being sexually harrassed on the job. I just can't believe I was that naive to think it wasn't going on. Most companys just want it all to go away, so they aren't going to do anything about any situations like this. However, speaking for my company our last to VP overe the Atlanta states were "allowed to leave" after they each touched female employees inappropriately. Its pretty hard to hide the fact when you have Deputys showing up at the Headquarters serving warrants.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Well now that you get to share what's wrong with America in your opinion, understand that not everyone feels like you and no offense but you don't get to make the rules any more than us and what is acceptable. In my opinion without getting all liberal/conservative on this board is that too many things are let to pass. and we end up with some of the garbage we have today, on TV, in the movies, and in everyday life. If someone wants to recite a prayer in school everyone goes nuts, but if I turn on the TV and see blatant sexual situations on network TV in prime time - that is OK..to heck with the kids watching...even cartoons like Famly Guy and American Dad have severely crossed the line in my opinion , to be shown as cartoons for kids. They surely are not. Now I am not a prude, or some religious stick in the mud...I just see this as a conflict in what is allowed and what isn't. I have no problem with these cartoons for instance being made and being shown, in the appropriate time and place. Now you said it yourself, this is not the kind of behavior you expect to see at a Disney park -- then why are you making a million excuses for this person ? It was wrong in the setting she was in. period. Do you think from the description the witches gave this was the first time, and this is really Snow White here who did this ? c'mon, You are all hung up on the firing thing.. this is in MY opinion what's wrong these days, no one takes responsibility for their actions. It is always someone else's fault , or there is always a justifiable reason -- she should be reprimanded, and if not fired at the very least moved to a job with NO customer contact. And if moved to another job, on probation for job performance and the next screw up, within a reasonable period ( 90 days ?)- gone. <<The whole thing about "I work at this company and we do this" means just about nothing to me - different companies do different things and just because your company is iron fisted all companies should be? << there are reasons for rules like this-- mainly a sue happy populace .....so this is not some right wing morality run amuk, it is the way businesses are run. And interviews are held to try and screen out those who don't care about these things. If one doesn't care about the company rules, remember working for a company is a privilege, not a right. The witches posted this because they were obviously grossed out by the fact that this occured in a place where it should not. By defend the behavior as not that bad it disregards their opinions in defense of someone we know nothing about. I just don't get that mindset. And while she may well be a college student working thre, she may also be someone that should not be working there because they have to have 50,000+ employees and it is hard to find that many.....
Originally Posted By imadisneygal What if the response of the Cast Member who was "patted" had less to do with the action itself and more to do with the realization that it wasn't the time or the place? He probably wouldn't consider suing or filing battery charges, but he might have some harsh words for her later. I think that even though his response seemed uncomfortable that he might, and I emphasize MIGHT, have found it fine or acceptable in another location. We really don't know the nature of their relationship at all. They could be dating or married to each other for all we know. Not that I think it's O.K. to batter your better half, that's not what I'm getting at. My point is that we don't know the whole story, only that the situation itself was inappropriate.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 < My point is that we don't know the whole story, only that the situation itself was inappropriate. < exactly the point -- no sense trying to read more into it than that, it was just inappropriate at that time/place and should not be repeated.
Originally Posted By danyoung I'd just like to say at this point that if any woman, CM or not, wants to pat me on the butt, feel free!
Originally Posted By Rosso11 I really think you guys are overreacting just a bit. I was a CM at the Magic Kingdom for a while and witnessed far worse then this. All of us CMs take traditions but in reality this has nothing to do with that. You must realize that a good percentage of CM are teenagers and this stuff goes on. Of course its really not acceptable but it happens all of the time. I honestly believe Disney cast members are some of the most behaved customer service friendly people out there. But we are not perfect, no one is. Teenagers fool around all of time and this is very minimal in my opinion compared to things I have seen happen. I'm pretty sure the guy never thought he was being sexually harassed and trust me she wouldn't have been fired on the spot. I was in a similar situation when I was a CM in tommorowland. There were three of us closing down Anti Gravites in Tommorowland and we were just having fun fooling around while we were trying to clean up. One of the girls I was working with came over and dropped some ice cubes down the back of my pants as a joke. It was no big deal I didn't think any thing of it we were just fooling around a little bit as we finished working that busy day. All of a sudden a merchandise manger had seen what happened and came right over to me and asked if I wanted to file a sexual harassment complaint. At first I thought he was joking because that thought had never crossed my mind, but he wasn't kidding. I quickly told him I was fine and we were just kidding around and he was on his way. I'm not saying this as an excuse to the girl but you guys are really making a big deal over nothing. If a manager would have witnessed what happened they would have definitely been spoken to and maybe a repomand would have been given out but I really don't think she would have been fired unless he made a formal complaint which is very unlikely.
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider >>And why are you making excuses for the perp? OK, so the victim probably wasn't traumatized from the experience, that still doesn't give ANYONE the right to go around gropping or inappropriately touching someone else. Perps everywhere constantly say things like "I was just joking, it wasn't a big deal". I have worked with women who were actively being sexually harrassed on the job. I just can't believe I was that naive to think it wasn't going on. Most companys just want it all to go away, so they aren't going to do anything about any situations like this. However, speaking for my company our last to VP overe the Atlanta states were "allowed to leave" after they each touched female employees inappropriately. Its pretty hard to hide the fact when you have Deputys showing up at the Headquarters serving warrants.<< Because I don't see the crime, thus she's not a 'perp' You never really specified what law she was breaking but I'm assuming you're referring to battery. I posted the general/basic battery law above and as I said she's not a perp UNLESS that guy was harmed and the action was unwanted. Now, excuse me for the assumption, but I highly doubt the man was harmed during this act. You can go down the whole "emotionally distraut" thing with me if you want but somehow I don't see that happening here. If you're talking about lewdness then that's a hard sell too, there's no exposure to anything overtly graphic or lewd here. Now granted I can't say for sure as I didn't witness it, but I get the impression that the description the OP set forth was a little exagerrated in terms of the man's reaction (not saying it's not true or that it is exagerrated but to me the whole description sounded a bit dramatic) nor do I know how the actual act looked but what I got from it was what happened was a girl patted a guy on the bum and he looked surprised. Again, I don't see the crime. If he was offended that's up to him to report it as it is HIM who the severity of the action is dependant on. >>Well now that you get to share what's wrong with America in your opinion, understand that not everyone feels like you and no offense but you don't get to make the rules any more than us and what is acceptable. In my opinion without getting all liberal/conservative on this board is that too many things are let to pass. and we end up with some of the garbage we have today, on TV, in the movies, and in everyday life. If someone wants to recite a prayer in school everyone goes nuts, but if I turn on the TV and see blatant sexual situations on network TV in prime time - that is OK..to heck with the kids watching...even cartoons like Famly Guy and American Dad have severely crossed the line in my opinion , to be shown as cartoons for kids. They surely are not. Now I am not a prude, or some religious stick in the mud...I just see this as a conflict in what is allowed and what isn't. I have no problem with these cartoons for instance being made and being shown, in the appropriate time and place. << And I respect your opinion but I disagree with it. In the example you gave you're comparing a captive audience of a classroom (where a child HAS to be or faces truancy) and subjecting them to a cross between church and state issues. On the other hand television shows in prime time are hardly a captive audience situation - if you don't want to watch it you can turn the television off or switch the channel. If parents don't want their children to watch it they can do their job as parents and monitor their children. If they don't have the time to monitor them all the time they can get a v-chip and lock such programs. >>Now you said it yourself, this is not the kind of behavior you expect to see at a Disney park -- then why are you making a million excuses for this person ? It was wrong in the setting she was in. period. Do you think from the description the witches gave this was the first time, and this is really Snow White here who did this ? c'mon, << I'm not making excuses for her. In fact I stated above she SHOULD be punished and depending on how the REAL "victim" here (it's the guy not the people who just see it...)different levels of punishment are appropriate. What she did was wrong, but if her worst offense was that she made the witches uncomfortable then she shouldn't face "Automatic instant termination" There are appropriate punishments - punishments that fit the crime (although I hate to use that expression as I don't think there was a crime here just a bad act) You wouldn't hang a kid for stealing a candy bar from the corner store so why go to the extreme in this case? Now as I said in a previous post if the guy really was truly offended she should be fired and maybe prosecuted/sued but somehow I don't feel that was the case, and if it's not the case a stern reprimand from a manager and maybe a suspension are in order. >>You are all hung up on the firing thing.. this is in MY opinion what's wrong these days, no one takes responsibility for their actions. It is always someone else's fault , or there is always a justifiable reason -- she should be reprimanded, and if not fired at the very least moved to a job with NO customer contact. And if moved to another job, on probation for job performance and the next screw up, within a reasonable period ( 90 days ?)- gone. << Again, I think you missed a lot of what I said in earlier posts. I never said she wasn't responsible and I always asserted she should be reprimanded but I said it probably shouldn't be as harsh as termination. "A manager should probably warn her first or suspend her but termination is extreme." from the first sentence of my 4th paragraph in post 22. I'm sure there are more but I don't understand why people just assume because you don't support and extreme you must support the other extreme on these boards (in this case no discipline at all). This has happened to me before in the breast feeding in public thread where somehow because I stated I thought it's appropriate for a woman to attempt to cover up a little while nursing in a public place or in more rare cases where they can't cover up to try to atleast find someplace a little more private than the bench in the mall atrium somehow I became the guy who was in favor of outlawing public breastfeeding. I never said I was against breastfeeding in public just that I would expect a mother to cover up and be considerate of those around her. This is similar in now somehow I'm being portrayed as defending the girl and being against all punishment and etc. I'm not - she should be punished I just don't think a firing is necesarrily in order based on the description. Now I realize I look like a hypocrite (wow I 'attacked' nursing mom's for being inappropriate in public but I'm defending CM's being sexually flirty and possible sexual harassment in a Disney park!) so before I hear it let me point out the difference - I never said a mother should be punished for not being a little modest in public, just that I don't think it's right for a woman, mother or not, to sit down next to someone in a mall and making no attempt to cover up pull out her breast, she shouldn't be punished but it shouldn't be viewed as 'acceptable' - in this case the girl SHOULD be punished I just think that termination is extreme. The world is made up of shades of gray but somehow this forum always reverts to black and white. >>The witches posted this because they were obviously grossed out by the fact that this occured in a place where it should not. By defend the behavior as not that bad it disregards their opinions in defense of someone we know nothing about. I just don't get that mindset.<< I didn't totally disregard the witches' opinion. It's because of the witches' opinion that the girl should be punished, but on the other hand the witches' opinion isn't what really matters here in terms of the termination punishment. The witches' may be a minor victim in this for being grossed out but the real victim would be the man that this happened to. If in that man's opinion the girl should be fired because he was that upset about it so be it, do it, Heck let him press charges too if he wants but if he wasn't offended then what this girl did isn't so severe that it warrants her being fired. What she did was wrong but making a guesta little uncomfortable/grossed out by an action that the guest merely witnessed doesn't seem to be worthy of instant termination. I realize the business aspect, I realize you have to keep the guests happy but you have to keep employees happy too. If you have some zero tolerance policy on something as seemingly innocent as this employee morale probably won't be too high which is bad, especially in a placve where CMs are supposed to be happy and cheery all the time. Now differentiating between what is "over the line" in terms of actions is hard - but that's up to the company. Maybe by Disney standards she should've been auto-terminated, but I don't know their policies so I'm just going by my own opinion. In my opinion without further information regarding how the man felt about it (this is America and it's innocent until proven guilty so I'll assume without his testimony that she was not guilty of harassing/battering him and only go by the crime of grossing out the Witches) I'd say discipline was necessary and warranted but not to the extent of termination. Again, that'd change if there was a past history but again I'm not going to assume she has one and I think it's unfair to jump to conclusions like >>Do you think from the description the witches gave this was the first time, and this is really Snow White here who did this ? c'mon<< >>And while she may well be a college student working thre, she may also be someone that should not be working there because they have to have 50,000+ employees and it is hard to find that many..... << It's not an excuse, if what she did warranted a firing fire her. I just made that point because I think it's easy for all the armchair CEOs to say "FIRE HER FIRE HER!" without humanizing her(de-humanization is very common online as you never have to meet anyone you talk to/about) and without thinking of how it can effect a person's life. It's very easy to fire someone you'll never meet based on a brief description of an incident given by someone you've never met (ahem heresay) but you have to think of the consequences. It's not an excuse it's just an example of why a hasty firing may not be the best or most warranted solution. Oh and post 31 I agree with everything you said.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I really think you guys are overreacting just a bit. I was a CM at the Magic Kingdom for a while and witnessed far worse then this< I hope this wasn't supposed to make us feel better. I totally understand what you are saying, but there comes a time in a teenagers life when they must make the transition to the work force and understand that all actions have repercussions. This is not the hallway at the local high school. My suggestion was to move the person backstage as opposed to being fired - and put on probation. But they also must understand that the recipient 'could' file a harassment claim, and that she 'could' be fired for her actions. If this is never taught to the person, how will they know ? Obviously they slept thru that part of the hiring process....fortunately or unfortunately ( however a person wants to view) - this is the reality of the workplace - (especially customer service workplace ) in 2005 -- there are plenty of people on both sides of the equation to thank for that.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom You obviously are having problems with the conception of "a crime". So let me spell it out for you. The MAJORITY or people in GEORGIA and their elected officials decided to make it a CRIME for anyone to touch someone else on the butt. It doesn't matter if you don't see "a crime here". If you are in Georgia and you touch someone on the butt YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. Now I'm not sure if Georgia considers touching someone on the butt rape or battery. Doesn't matter me to ( or the judge ).
Originally Posted By danyoung >...even cartoons like Famly Guy and American Dad have severely crossed the line in my opinion , to be shown as cartoons for kids.< Just because these shows are cartoons doesn't make them for kids. I like both of these shows, but would never watch them with my kids till they were older - they're just not appropriate for them, and I as the parent should be making that decision.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 KT -- you have synopsized the problem well - it doesn't matter what one's opinion of a crime - or a fireable offense is, if it is in writing, it is enforceable. Without turning this into a WE topic -- this mindset started in the White House with a definition of what is and what is not something...and has carried on in both politics and real world now for quite a while..... one doesn't get to interpret laws to fit their own needs no matter who they are. And yes, I know this is not an end of the world crime, but some of the responses are symptomatic of many ills today.....instead of owning up to something may be wrong or inappropriate, everything has to be qualified. The last political indictment, the excuse really is - well everyone in politics does it so it's OK to misappropriate monies....when reality is, no, it's wrong. Behavior of CM's at WDW should be exemplary, and appropriate for all who attend. Yes, I know no one is perfect, but then they have to know boundaries are set for a reason and need to be followed, or else negative things will happen. Really isn't all that complicated. Witches, I bet when you posted this you thought the situation was cut and dried huh ? in truth , so did I
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider Too bad Disney World isn't in Georgia huh? Oh and I can wager you won't get arrested for touching someone on the rear even in Georgia. A) you'd NEED a police officer present to witness it and if A) is met then B) The officer would actually feel like arresting you. I think it's you who is having major problems with conceptions - not of what is or isn't a crime but how they are enforced. In my state (Massachusetts) if you bumped into me on the street that can be considered "Battery" - do you honestly think you're going to be charged let alone convicted of that crime? It's against the law to fornicate and commit sodomy in many states but I don't see many parents out of wedlock getting locked up do you? Or people engaged in foreplay with their spouses getting thrown in jail for that matter? Please don't lecture me on the law, especially when you're referring to some archaeic Georgian one about touching someone's rear and then go and apply it elsewhere. Even if it were a crime in Florida guess what? In reality it wouldn't matter. Jaywalking is a crime in most places, in just about every city I've probably broken that law and in many instances probably in front of an officer on detail or in a cruiser yet I've never even been talked to for it. There are bigger fish to fry in the world and to reference some bizarre law from your state is ludicrous. Better not put that Mickey icecream bar in your pocket in some states cause having ice cream in your pocket is illegal (I think in Illinois) in some parts of the country, if the girl put her ice cream bar in her pocket should she not only be fired but arrested? When was this law enacted by the way? Are you talking about recently or is this a dandy from the turn of the century? I'm surprised you haven't complained about the horses on Mainstreet and the CMs that care for them, I mean those horses aren't wearing diapers which is against the law someplaces....those villains!
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Do I really want to turn this into a WE discussion?s <<A) you'd NEED a police officer present to witness it>> Actaully no you don't. You see ALL of us have the right to doing a citizens arrest. And some people do still believe in and if necessary would ABSOLUTELY exercise that right. No I really don't think that arresting someone for touching someones butt is a old law in Georgia. Toad I'm really not terribly surprised with your attitude, heck in your state its perfectly legal to be ( alledgedly ) drunk and drive off a bridge at night allowing your passenger to drown. And then leave and not notify the authorities till the next morning.
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider >>Do I really want to turn this into a WE discussion?s<< Apparently you do. It's not legal in my state to do any of that stuff but go ahead and make a blanket statement because of some suspicious thing someone I didn't vote for did. >>Actaully no you don't. You see ALL of us have the right to doing a citizens arrest. And some people do still believe in and if necessary would ABSOLUTELY exercise that right. No I really don't think that arresting someone for touching someones butt is a old law in Georgia.<< Do you even know what a citizen arrest is? It means you can detain the person until the police arrive/you take them to the police and then they take over, and if you tell the police "I saw this person touch someone's bum" they aren't going to charge them. No cop is that stupid. And I could sink to your level and make a similar comment about your state here but I won't
Originally Posted By dshyates Another thought, knowing the demo of wdw CMs there is a good chance that the guy is gay, and being groped by a woman IS unwanted. Making jokes of his "lack of manlyness" would be cruel.
