Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I true story. Sometime in the past two months some nutcase woman hit her 8 month pregnant next door neighbor over the head with a baseball bat knocking her unconscious. Then drove her to some woods where using a razor blade attempted to remove the unborn child. Along came a 16 year old on an ATV. Now according to Toad, 1) no crime was committed since there was no police officer present to witness the crime, 2) the 16 year old should have realized the reams of paperwork he would have to complete if he was to interceed, 3) the 16 year old would be placing himself in all sorts of legal litagation if he was to interceed, 4) should not interceed since he is not a professional and is not trained in law or law enforcement. Well the 16 year old DID interceed and as a result two lives were saved that day, the life of a bouncing baby boy and the life of the mother. Now back to what I was saying: FACT its illegal to "touch" someone on the butt in Georgia. If someone witnesses another touch someone elses butt ( with out permission ) then that is considered rape/ assualt whatever in Georgia. As a legal US citizen each of us has a right to interceed and if necessary do a citizens arrest until a police officer can be present. Once present the police officer is obligated BY LAW to arrest the "rapist". (PLEASE NOTE, THE LAW DOESN'T CALL FOR A JUDGEMENT CALL ON THE PART OF THE POLICE OFFICER). Now if the Police Officer DOESN'T arrest the "rapist" then the Police Officer is in violation of THE LAW.
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider >>I true story. Sometime in the past two months some nutcase woman hit her 8 month pregnant next door neighbor over the head with a baseball bat knocking her unconscious. Then drove her to some woods where using a razor blade attempted to remove the unborn child. Along came a 16 year old on an ATV. Now according to Toad, 1) no crime was committed since there was no police officer present to witness the crime, 2) the 16 year old should have realized the reams of paperwork he would have to complete if he was to interceed, 3) the 16 year old would be placing himself in all sorts of legal litagation if he was to interceed, 4) should not interceed since he is not a professional and is not trained in law or law enforcement.<< 1) I never said the crime didn't happen, don't put words into my mouth. Please learn to read entire posts before you respond. 2)I never mentioned paper work so again please don't put words into my mouth, thanks. 3) The 16 year old was putting himself in possible legal trouble. You do realize a civil court is seperate from criminal court right? The woman COULD sue the boy for grabbing her or whatever, doesn't mean she'd win but it's possible. I forget the name of the case but I'm sure a basic google search will show you that this was decided in which a man rigged his house which was constantly being burglarized with a makeshift trap involving a shotgun. A burglar entered his home, the gun shot him in the legs and he was convicted of burglary....but he also successfully sued the home owner for the injuries he sustained. Does this mean the boy should do nothing? No - but this case is a bit different than seeing someone touching someone on the butt in my humble opinion, what do you think? 4) Again, I never said you shouldn't interefere with a crime being committed. I said you better be sure you know what you're doing though and getting yourself into. Please, again see numbers 1 and 2 about putting words into my mouth and my suggestion that you learn to read. and I'll add one of my own. A police officer who has only the word of a stranger that someone touched someone else has no evidence at all and no proof that a crime was committed. When you have a brutalized pregnant woman, the attacker, and the attacker's weapons that's a little bit more solid than "OFFICER OFFICER! I SAW HIM TOUCH HER ON THE BOTTOM ARREST HIM IMMEDIATELY" I'd like to see this Georgia law that says an officer has zero discretion when dealing with citizen's arrests. I'd also like to see where it says someone's word is enough evidence to arrest someone and that a crime actually occurred. Your example is funny to me as it has all of the exact elements I told you the butt touching incident lacked.
Originally Posted By danyoung >PLEASE NOTE, THE LAW DOESN'T CALL FOR A JUDGEMENT CALL ON THE PART OF THE POLICE OFFICER.< We're just going to have to disagree on this one, Tom. In my view the officer always has discretion in whether to up the ante and put a person into the system. This is the case every time you get stopped for speeding and the officer lets you off with a warning. You did the crime, there is plenty of hard evidence that you did the crime, and it would be easy to get a conviction. But the officer on the scene bases his decision on your driving record, and even more on your attitude with him. That's a judgement call, and cops everywhere make them every day.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORWEN: I suddenly feel like I'm in the World Events section--and it's all the fault of a certain nasty old biddy--who dragged me kicking and screaming into this topic to begin with. All I wanted to do was buy a picture. So what if some silly girl slapped a young man on his behind. I don't want us going all the way to the Supreme Court over it. ORGOCH: Well, e-x-c-u-s-e me!! But somebody's gotta stand up fer the morals a this here world!!! An' I don't care ta visit a theme park that cain't be trusted ta keep its workers in line!! Slappin' each other on the rump roast and actin' like it's okay ta do it out in plain sight ain't my idea a good behaviour. Bad 'nuff when ya gotta see other guests actin' that way!! Don't mean I has ta put up with it from a dang cast member, too!! An' this partic'lar one we saw looked like a slob, on top a ev'rything else!!
Originally Posted By imadisneygal I am in no way an expert on this but as I understand it, there has to be a victim claiming a crime in order for there to be a crime. Now, some charges are pressed and prosecuted by the DA because they take over and speak for the victim. (I'm thinking of murder, domestic violence - at least in CA) to name a few. Otherwise, crimes such as rape require an actual complainant to come forward. In the case of rape, if a victim doesn't choose to press charges then there is - in the technical sense, not the moral sense - no crime. I think it's the same for this type of situation. COULD it be a crime? Sure. But not unless the man who was patted pressed charges against the woman. There is something in the law about having the accuser press charges, isn't there? Anyone??
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "WDW has the most comprehensive training of CMs then any other Disney theme park location." What exactly do you base this on? You believe Disney's CMs in Anaheim, Paris, Tokyo or Hong Kong aren't given the same training? "We also offer the highest pay and benefits package of any Disney theme park location. The hourly wage offered is the highest of all central Florida theme parks and makes working for WDW attractive to a lot of Central Floridians and college students from across the country." I don't know whether this is the case or not, but I know for quite a while Sea World was offering a higher starting wage. And when you are talking nickels and dimes how much does it matter anyway, Lewis?
Originally Posted By Rosso11 "I know that is your opinion but what an insult to all the hard working CMs at WDW. I know we have a few bad apples amongst us but 1/4 that are not good I do not think so. WDW has the most comprehensive training of CMs then any other Disney theme park location. We also offer the highest pay and benefits package of any Disney theme park location. The hourly wage offered is the highest of all central Florida theme parks and makes working for WDW attractive to a lot of Central Floridians and college students from across the country." I agree 100% with you. That was extremely rude to every CM out there. I would love to see you have to deal with millions of rude obnoxious tourists everyday. We work very hard trying to serve the millions of tourists we have to deal with everyday. When you have 55,000 CMs of course there will be a few bad ones but to say "That's why a good 1/4 of them aren't fit to work at a local burger joint" is just offensive to all of us.
Originally Posted By Lake Nona >>I don't know whether this is the case or not, but I know for quite a while Sea World was offering a higher starting wage. And when you are talking nickels and dimes how much does it matter anyway<< I had no idea AB would be "cheap" on their employees. NYSE/BUD Sounds like I need to switch my beer brand from Budweiser to Sam Adams.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost It wasn't my intent to "have my opinion" and just drop it. My intent was to try and make some of you see that Political Correctness is an illness. It makes people decide that the mere fact that they are "offended" means that a crime has been committed. The comparison of this incident in WDW and the woman that went to cut out the baby is absolutely ludicrous. I have always respected your opinion vbdad but if you read your own initial post on this subject it is riddled with contradiction and confusion. That is what happens when uniformed people attempt to pass judgement on a situation that they know nothing about. And frankly none of us knows anything at all about this situation except for the, also uniformed, observation of an individual who thinks they saw something. They have no history of anything having to do with these two people. The only thing they are sure of is that, whatever it was, happened at WDW and that they thought it was out of place. When people start comparing a pat on the posterior with murders and rapes then they have lost all credibility in my eyes. So I merely made a suggestion that we discuss something that we know about. This ain't it and it doesn't really matter if everyone works of a Fortune 1 company, it won't change the fact that none of us knows anything about this particular incident. You can all continue on with this dribble, I personally will move on to something more real and much more enjoyable. Happy Witch hunt! Sorry witches!
Originally Posted By trekkeruss My concern about this discussion is that it seems that some see this as a black and white, right or wrong situation, when life (and the original, observed incident) isn't so simple. There is the law, and then there is justice. They aren't always the same thing. That's my POV, anyway.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I have always respected your opinion vbdad but if you read your own initial post on this subject it is riddled with contradiction and confusion.< well I've gone back to my first 2 posts and please enlightenme on the contradiction and confusion..they still appear clear to me. And please don't confuse me with any comparisons between the incident and felonies as I made none of those -- as well as those who did make them were in response to other than the original scenario. As for what we know and don't know, in any context the behavior was inappropriate for 2 CM's in front of guests at a theme park - period. I agree all other extrapolations of what punishments should be are merely speculation, but got to that point as some people seem to think laws are on the books but never adhered to. From business experience, what some have chosen to trivialize here have ruined careers and lives - real world, not speculation.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost First of all, let me apologize to vbdad. I confused you with another OP. I guess I was just upset about the reaction that implied that I felt I should express my opinion and then have the discussion stop. Sorry! I think this discussion should stop with or without my opinion being stated. It belongs in World Events. The just of it is this...is it inappropriate behavior for the workplace? I think most people would think so and that would be anyplace, not WDW exclusively. Is it a crime to touch someone? Only if it offends or bothers the person being touched. Other wise every "involved" couple on the planet would be in jail. My entire point was that part of the problems in today's society is what you did state, vbdad, "the sue happy populace". The one that feels that everything is about them. The mindset that says everything offends me and I am going to control your behavior no matter what. I don't care if it cost you your livelihood, your friends, you life's savings or your very joy of life. It is mine to take away whenever I think I don't like something. Because I know this will be thrown in, I am not referring to actual physical, painful abuse. That is every ones obligation to try and stop when the person being hurt appears helpless and in extreme danger. That is why I got so upset about the comparison between the "cutter" and this touching incident. Without segway, if we said that it was not justified to call for the firing of someone when we didn't know the background, we than became supporters of murderers and rapists. That's when I felt that this discussion veered wildly away from any chance of being a logical, thought out exchange of ideas and turned into a circus. I then suggested that we stop speculating and judging things we do not really know about and go to discussing what's right and wrong with Disney. I am aware that this happened on Disney property and it is a knee jerk reaction on most of these boards to blame every incident that happens at Disney on past, current or future management. Things like this happen with the most diligent of supervisors standing along side them. Why, because you cannot control the actions of others in any way, manner, shape or form. Most of the time all businesses have to be, because of human nature, reactive as opposed to proactive. No one can accurately predict the future actions of others. If you want to place blame for that persons actions I would dare to point to the parents that never had the time or ability to teach there children proper behavior, in or out of the public eye!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I think this discussion should stop with or without my opinion being stated. It belongs in World Events absolutely agree with this
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <First of all, let me apologize to vbdad. I confused you with another OP. I guess I was just upset about the reaction that implied that I felt I should express my opinion and then have the discussion stop. Sorry! < thanks --appreciate that - the topics has gotten emotional to be sure I agree with your assessment that management can't stop this every time before it happens( boy do I agree with this) but there has to be an appropraite reaction also. Someone has to to ensure things are controlled-- and yes there is a fine line between controlled and over-controlled. My biggest concern in the responses came from those who chose to trivialize the event as if it was absolutely nothing - and that is not true. It is somewhere between inappropriate and illegal - that depends on the person it happened to to decide. However there is a ceratain segment of the populace who also believes everything is appropriate and OK -- and I am more the right time and place kinda person.
Originally Posted By danyoung >I think this discussion should stop with or without my opinion being stated.< It amazes me that you would make this statement, and then proceed to write a lengthy opinion in the same post. If you think the discussion should stop, then quit writing. And who cares what section this discussion is in besides the moderators? The thread was started with an action of a CM, so that puts it in WDW territory. It's here, people are contributing, and no one is being hurt. Seems just fine to me.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 As long as it doesn't get as descriptive as one post ( the only one I cringed at) - it is OK -- and you're right in that the moderators will decide- with or without us if it crosses the line.
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider I would like to apologize for my lack of understanding in citizen's arrest cases - the sad part is I'm a Criminal Justice Student on an internship at a police station. I asked the officer who I work with and he did in fact tell me that the officer must take the person into custody - but they do not "Arrest" the person, the citizen has already done that. Because the citizen has already "Arrested" the person the police cannot "Un-arrest" them and the ONLY person with that right is a judge. A prosecutor can move to drop the charges but the judge may deny that motion and hear the case. With that being said, however, if you falsely arrest the person you ARE subject to both legal and civil reprocussions. In the case of seeing someone touch another person's rear end in public you have ZERO evidence only than your word and if you're willing to put yourself at that kind of risk to what comes down to your word versus theirs you'd be a fool. The case with the woman and the baby is obviously something that should be stopperd by anyone and there's a clear court case here with the abundance of evidence but in cases like seeing someone touch someone it's a very slippery slope and just because you CAN arrest the person doesn't mean you should. That whole side thing is moot in this situation though because the bum touching "rape" law is in Georgia and this incident occured in Florida. Anyway I think I'm done posting on this thread and I'd just like to finish by re-stating my original opinion as it may have gotten lost in all of the other mess: This girl did something inappropriate in the park while on duty. She should be scolded but based on the info. we have a termination seems quite extreme. She MAY have comitted a crime depending on that gentleman, but that is up to HIM to decide and no one else. Thank you
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I was speaking to vbdad to explain my less than exlemplatory response to his post. I have no intention of continuing this discussion.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I was speaking to vbdad to explain my less than exlemplatory response to his post. I have no intention of continuing this discussion< no issue at all from me, we have both been around here a long time....all's cool
