Originally Posted By Mr X (I wouldn't expect any Mormons to be present though...probably just the janitor with his key...so be sure to lock up when you leave)
Originally Posted By mele I've done a lot of thinking about what tolerance means. I don't think it means being quiet while someone spouts things that you think are absolute nonsense. The tolerance is allowing that person to continue to have the same rights that you enjoy. So, while I will never keep silent or even calm when my rights are being challenged, I will never try to take away your Constitutional right to say them. I will never vote to destroy a church or their religion. I will never vote to force a church to perform weddings that they do not want to perform. I may give you a piece of my mind about it but I will never take away your rights. *THAT* is real tolerance. It doesn't have to be polite or respectful. It's about basic rights.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I will never vote to force a church to perform weddings that they do not want to perform.*** I totally agree, so long as the CHURCH acts like one and follows the laws in terms of staying out of politics. If not, they cease to even BE a Church in the eyes of the law...thus equal rights comes into play and they'll have to perform their ceremonies on an equal opportunity basis...just like a Vegas chapel. I'd be fine with that, personally. Separating church and state works both ways.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster elderp: "I don't care about the spelling mistake, anyhow, I have to differ on this. I have already seen an increasing number of threats on my rights and of those I know. On these boards I have outright read people telling me my church "should get all it deserves" and "it's tax exempt status should be repealed" based on this issue." Not "based in this issue". Based on your church's actions on this issue. The church is overstepping its rights to remain tax-exempt in an effort to promote discrimination. Period. You can't attack and then whine when you are attacked back. Sorry. "In San Diego I know of a doctor who is getting sued right now because he refused to perform a artificial semination on a lesbian couple, despite the fact there were many other doctors who were willing to perform the procedure." This rings untrue. Can you provide the details of the lawsuit? "I know of two lawsuits in which churches were put on trial because they refused to rent out their facilities to gay marriages (in those cases they won, but that was before prop 22 was repealed). Those are actual cases." A church can only be sued if it is violating the law. No church can be forced to recognize gay marriages or perform them. They can only be sued if their facilities are public property, not private property. "I wont even go into the theoretical cases, because if prop 8 doesn't pass I wont have to. I can almost guarantee LDS and Catholic Social Services will have to close shop (at least on the adoption part of their operations)." Totally untrue. They are only subject to the law if they receive public funds. LDS social services are entirely church owned. Try again. "I am sure after those go down many others will follow. The lawsuits by the gay community wont stop as they will see the defeat as a rally cryto bring forth more lawsuits." Total BS. All we want is equality under the law. You can do whatever you want in your church and that won't change a bit. Did the end of prohibition result in lawsuits against your church? No. "In fact at this point I am pretty much resigned to lawsuits no matter what, but at this point I'd much rather have the constituion on my side than not." Your understanding of the constitution is poor. It most certainly is NOT on your side of this issue. You want to impose your moral code on everyone else and that is something the constitution absolutely does NOT support.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Mr X: "So to all you gay folks out there dreaming of a Mormon Temple Wedding...you might just get your chance. " Ugh who would want that? You have to wear funny clothes, only Mormons can attend, and the room looks like a hotel lobby. It's the most UNromantic wedding I can imagine.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>"I know of two lawsuits in which churches were put on trial because they refused to rent out their facilities to gay marriages (in those cases they won, but that was before prop 22 was repealed). Those are actual cases."<< I happen to have, at my fingertips, access to caselaw in just about all 50 states and on the federal level. Got a cite? I'd like to read these for myself.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I doubt we're turning them gay, but there is a good chance we're turning them literate.<< Even worse. ;-)
Originally Posted By Tiggirl You know, if they can read.... they can start to think for themselves. Its all down hill after that! ~Beth
Originally Posted By Mr F Elderp, that whole issue about the Doctor in San Diego being sued has NOTHING to do with marriage. He could still be sued for discrimination regardless if Gay Marriage was legal or not. Prop 8 doesn't mandate who can or can't be artificially inseminated. This is a GREAT example of how the "Yes on Prop 8" side is using scare tactics and points which have absolutely nothing to do with the issue.
Originally Posted By mele They don't really care about those issues. If they did, they'd directly deal with those issues. That is undeniable. Instead, they go after gays because deep down, that *is* the issue, not the other stuff they try to distract everyone with.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Driving around town today, saw a lot of the 'Yes on 8' signs that had been graffiti-style painted with a 'NO' -- big black spray painted letters. I hate graffiti, but I did get a chuckle out of that. Plus, saw 3-4 Obama supporters in the grocery store today. Barack the Vote!!!!
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Plus, saw 3-4 Obama supporters in the grocery store today.<< Buyin' arugula, no doubt.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Driving around town today, saw a lot of the 'Yes on 8' signs that had been graffiti-style painted with a 'NO' -- big black spray painted letters.> Yeah, that's funny. Shows the real love and kindness shown by the no-on-8 supporters.
Originally Posted By mele LOL, just keep blaming other people for their small "sins" while ignoring your own, huge "sin". Typical.
Originally Posted By mele Your beliefs about it certainly are. You want to limit your fellow citizens rights, limit their family's rights and yet chastize people for painting NO on signs. Insanely disproportionate reaction, imo.
Originally Posted By Sara Tonin It seems alot of this grafiti is self-inflicted pity seeking. How sad that people would even stoop that low.
