Originally Posted By utahjosh I believe we've been down this path before. I'll continue to say what I believe, and X and other will trash it.
Originally Posted By Sara Tonin I believe you are sincere when you say that...but do you ever stop to think how it makes others feel when you dismiss their beliefs out of hand...it's like your'e saying...what you believe is the One Truth..and it may be for you...but it feels like you're being dismissive of what others believe...and believe me they hold their beliefs just as sacred and grounded as you do. Me, I believe the Master calls us all in our own way, not always the same way as others. Maybe if you would try to be accepting of someone else's way, they would be more open to hear what's in your heart. I just wanted to say this one more time...can you hear me now?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox There is no use reasoning with someone who believes that his truth is absolute and everyone else's truth is false, that his way is the only way and everyone else is on the wrong path. You cannot reason with someone like Josh, Sara. He will never accept anyone else's beliefs as having any validation. If someone tries to offer any opinion different to his own, he will accuse them of twisting his beliefs and mocking him. Of course, since he believes that his truth is the absolute truth, he will work hard to spread the "joy and light" to others because he doesn't want to see any of his brethren burn in eternal damnation. Which is where he's certain we're all going to end up because we don't accept the same truth that he does. The only thing we can do, is work hard to keep people like Josh from influencing government and misinforming voters in order to pass laws that would force his personal beliefs onto others who do not think as he does. Folks like Josh think they have a monopoly on morality. Truth is, they never did and never will. But as long as they continue to act on that misguided assumption, we're all screwed if we sit idly by and let them get away with it.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> I consider every person a brother or sister. And I love them and I know the way to true and eternal happiness and want to share it with them. << Total "off the shelf" talking point nonsense - said with a straight face and all the sincerity he could muster. Ironically, and not to seem unnecessarily harsh, but honestly I sometimes think that being a member of these churches must be rather soul deadening. To breezily spout such empty rhetoric, by rote, without thought, because you've been taught that this is the 'party line' response ... it's all so patently transparent.
Originally Posted By Sara Tonin Thanks skinnerbox, but Josh and I seem to have this conversation every few months or so...I don't expect him to change his heart or mind...some day the message I hope for him to hear is that the Devine wants us to love each other and not judge...that is the Devine's job...we are relieved of that responsibilty.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I'm not saying it would happen. But it would be kind of a chuckle, huh, if Josh were right? I won't ever TOTALLY dismiss ANYONE'S religious beliefs. In the end, I have no way of knowing if mine are truly any better than theirs.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "I guess I don't understand why someone has to express their lack of faith. It just seems weird to me. Everyone here knows I am not religious in any way...I just don't know why people feel the *need* to express that they don't believe someone's religion. It just seems like a negative thing to do. It's one thing to express the lack of believe when asked, and I guess people feel religion is being rammed down their throats. (I disagree that people's car decor is doing this)...I don't understand the need for a statement." Well I think it is cool to have a symbol, after all, agnosticism and atheism are theological stances. I for one find the huge swathe of faith and how it manifests itself in many American communities to be putrifying. And as a historian, I find the use of faith as a justification of policy to be very distrubing. During those Dark Bush years, it honestly felt like I was living in exile. I am tired of people praying for my soul (I used to be touched, but as I get older, I don't have the patience) because I do not follow a religion. I am tired of people trying to convert me, many who or only christian because of where they are born. I was born into a mixed Catholic/Methodist household, my family has a Masoleum and St Peter and Pauls in San Francisco, I went to hebrew school for 2 years, went to a very scary Texas Baptist Summer School, read the Quran, as well as Buddhist and Taoist literature. I have explored paganism, spiritualism and Bahai faiths. Having travelled the world, and experienced The Americas, Europe, Africa and Asia, I believe there may be a god, but I know I am definately not Christian. Christianity seems to me to be as likely to be as real as Thor, Zeus or Ra. Perhaps, becuase Mohammed came after christ, Islam may be the "true faith". I uphold people's rights to believe in religion, as long as it does not hurt anyone. But why is it ok to have symbolism of faith everywhere, but not lack of faith?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I believe we've been down this path before. I'll continue to say what I believe, and X and other will trash it.*** It's not exclusive to yours, believe me. Pretty much the only reason you find me so full of vitriol towards Mormons and Catholics is because of the trampling of equal rights those two (in particular) love to engage in, along with the scummy rape coverups that make me absolutely LOATHE the Vatican and all the folks in charge of that den of inequity. For the record, I can completely understand where Josh is coming from with his "because I know the truth" answer, because I said the very same thing myself once upon a time and believed it. He's just as wrong as I was.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Well let's take Josh's point here. Perhaps some of us non believers are working to try to ensure that people put their faith in themselves rather than God or Jesus. If God exists, would he/she/it/they not want us to exercise free will and prove that humanity is good. Religion can be very comforting, most fairy tales and good stories are. But like the Mirror of Erised in Harry Potter, if you stare to long rather than living your life, is that not a wasted life. Why would a god want us to focus on when we die rather than what we can do when we are alive? Why do churches teach of unbaptised babies not reaching heaven, and yet criminals who repent on their deathbed are likely to reach heaven? Countries have been invaded, peoples massacred and terrorists have existed because of Christians (we know the same can be said of Islam, but their track history is shorter). What I find facinating on LP though is how no one ever responds to my posts about Islamic teachings. I think it is evidence of lack of exposure or interest.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***What I find facinating on LP though is how no one ever responds to my posts about Islamic teachings. I think it is evidence of lack of exposure or interest.*** An extremely interesting point. As for me, I don't comment much on Islam because I don't know much about it and know very few people of that faith. As I said just above about Mormanism, I never had a problem with it until I began to realize that their mission was to brutally suppress the rights of others...and I got a REALLY creepy vibe here on LP from Mormon folks on that issue that I have *never* felt anywhere in my life from anyone from any other religious denomination. So, I have some very vocal feelings about that group. When I first encountered them, I thought they were just some other church, with surprisingly friendly members. Little did I know. I've already expressed my feelings about the faith of my youth, I'm disgusted, again by their ACTIONS not their faith in general. As for Islam, I know only of the extremist fringe that wants to kill everyone. And I hardly think I can base my opinion around THAT even though some seem to want to (at large, not speaking of LP in particular).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Agreed X, though just as the IRA (Bloodthristy catholics in their day) and the conquestedors are not necessarily representative of Christianity (nor the scary bible belters in the US), the fundamentalist teachings of Islam is not representative either. People focus on the droconian behaviours of parts of the Middle East and North East Africa, but actually, there are more Muslims in Asia and Europe now. The idea of Jyhad means "struggle". This could mean, and under islamic law, does mean that the struggle is to stay true to your faith and not vere from the ethics of the teachings of the Old Testament, New Testament and the prophecis of Muhammed. What most of the ignorami do not understand is that the teachings of Islam draw from the Judio Christian texts and modernise them. That is why at it's base level I do question christians, much in the way I have seen some christians question Jews. In our house, we tend to celebrate or at least discuss all the major religious or cultural festivals. The issue is the fact that America is not built on Christianity formally, it is built on the Masonic belief of one god and the all seeing eye. Yes, the pilgrims were protestant and lutherian christian freaks (ok, maybe a bit harsh, but they were considered fundamentalists in Europe) that interbred for hundreds of years, and the conquestedors and missionaries pushed Catholocism on the west coast. But Thomas Jefferson was the first politician in the world to grant full equal rights to the Jews. And the Chinese immigrants during the famines and railway booms of the 1860's onwards brought zen and cofuscionism to America. Even despite the trail of tears, some forms of paganism still exist in some tribes, and in the Bayous the voodoo faith mixes christianity and paganism. The US is a rich tapestry of cultures and faiths, and that is what makes her feel like the grand experiment. But more and more, it seems like people would rather talk about one nation under Jesus, rather than one nation under god. And that to me seems the antithesis of liberty.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The US is a rich tapestry of cultures and faiths, and that is what makes her feel like the grand experiment. But more and more, it seems like people would rather talk about one nation under Jesus, rather than one nation under god. And that to me seems the antithesis of liberty.*** Kanpai!
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Well let's take Josh's point here. Perhaps some of us non believers are working to try to ensure that people put their faith in themselves rather than God or Jesus.<< Which is what I've ben getting at all along in these religion threads. I know that many who are agnostic and atheistic are comfortable in their beliefs and have no need to try and convert anyone. But the billboards and such are definitely there to try and convert people away from religion. There's just no denying the obvious.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Which is where he's certain we're all going to end up because we don't accept the same truth that he does.> You couldn't be more wrong.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <To breezily spout such empty rhetoric, by rote, without thought, because you've been taught that this is the 'party line' response ... it's all so patently transparent,> To accuse me of saying such things without thought is rude and incorrect.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <He's just as wrong as I was.> You're free to believe that. I know that God lives. I know it. And nobody could ever convince me otherwise. To many, that seems blinded and stubborn and brainwashed or whatever negative connotation they can come up with - but it fills me with hope and I cannot deny what I know.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Why do churches teach of unbaptised babies not reaching heaven, and yet criminals who repent on their deathbed are likely to reach heaven?> I always found that unsettling, and I don't believe it.
Originally Posted By utahjosh < their mission was to brutally suppress the rights of others.> Wow, you REALLY don't get it, do you.
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