Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder And then there's the bizarre practice of bpatizing non-Mormon dead people. If that isn't suppressing the right of someone to refuse the baptism and impose something on them against their will, I don't know what is.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Of course, since he believes that his truth is the absolute truth, he will work hard to spread the "joy and light" to others because he doesn't want to see any of his brethren burn in eternal damnation. Which is where he's certain we're all going to end up because we don't accept the same truth that he does.> To be fair to josh (and Mormonism), skinnerbox, that's not accurate. Mormons are much less into the fire and brimstone stuff than many Christian denominations, especially the fundamentalist ones. In fact, in Mormonism there's a much less "binary" conception of Heaven and Hell. There are sort of different levels of Heaven. In the Mormon view, good people of other faiths can and do get to Heaven. They just don't get to the highest level of Heaven. And yeah, ultimately that's arrogant and elitist also, but at least it isn't consigning non-believers in Mormonism to Hell. That's much more a fundie thing (and not just fundamentalist Christians, either). <The only thing we can do, is work hard to keep people like Josh from influencing government and misinforming voters in order to pass laws that would force his personal beliefs onto others who do not think as he does.> On the other hand, skinnerbox, there we're definitely on the same page.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <And then there's the bizarre practice of bpatizing non-Mormon dead people. If that isn't suppressing the right of someone to refuse the baptism and impose something on them against their will, I don't know what is.> Then you don't understand it. We don't consider those for whom we baptize to be members of our church, we don't even consider them "baptized" unless they accept the offer in the afterlife.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Then you don't understand it.<< Josh, why don't you consider, for once, that maybe it's you who doesn't understand it. I've been on both sides of the fence. I've been a fully-fledged, believing Mormon. I used to think exactly like you. Now, I'm on the other side. And now I can see why people would find the practice offensive. I get that you don't see it that way. I understand your thinking. Really. But try stepping back for once and saying, "You know, I really don't understand why people are offended at this, but they've said they are, and maybe my church should respect that."
Originally Posted By mele <<we don't even consider them "baptized" unless they accept the offer in the afterlife.>> Brilliant excuse!
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Then you don't understand it. We don't consider those for whom we baptize to be members of our church, we don't even consider them "baptized" unless they accept the offer in the afterlife." After reading this, you truly don't know what bizarre is.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I'm telling you once again, anyone tries any sort of baptism/conversion/whatever while I'm living-challenged, and I will haunt them for-freaking-ever. I'm talking making frequent midnight ghostly appearances as Pennywise the Clown or one of the flying monkeys from Wizard of Oz or as Tom Delay in Dancing with the Stars. You do not want that. Don't mess with me.
Originally Posted By FaMulan <Brilliant excuse!> Brilliant TRUTH.<< It may be your truth, but it is not mine. And there are many "truths" in this world. And like 2oony, you try to baptize me post-mortem and I will not only haunt you as a ghost, I'll do my darndest to go zombie on your behind.
Originally Posted By ecdc See what I mean, Josh? You can spout meaningless platitudes about "truth" all you like. Right or wrong, some people find the practice very offensive. If the LDS church weren't so arrogant about believing it had the "truth," it would be more respectful about this. It caved on the Holocaust victims because of the PR problems it posed. So they certainly have it in them to stop doing it. But they won't because they know they're right, and damned be anyone else's feelings.
Originally Posted By utahjosh < And there are many "truths" in this world.> There is only one truth. There may be different perspectives of it, or different levels of understanding it, but the nature of truth is that there can only be one.
Originally Posted By utahjosh < If the LDS church weren't so arrogant about believing it had the "truth," it would be more respectful about this.> I know I live in a house. Does saying so make me arrogant? I know God lives. Does that? I know the Book of Mormon is a book from God. Am I arrogant now?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <And like 2oony, you try to baptize me post-mortem and I will not only haunt you as a ghost, I'll do my darndest to go zombie on your behind.> <I'm telling you once again, anyone tries any sort of baptism/conversion/whatever while I'm living-challenged, and I will haunt them for-freaking-ever. > You do that.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I know I live in a house. Does saying so make me arrogant? I know God lives. Does that? I know the Book of Mormon is a book from God. Am I arrogant now?<< Apples and oranges, but typical oversimplified claptrap. You can prove you live in a house. As a society, we've developed language and come to agreed upon definitions, as best we can, on what things mean. We've come to understand what a house is. So that's the first hurdle. Do we all agree on the definition of a house? I suspect we do. From there, you could send us pictures of you in front of your house. If we didn't believe you, we could see it in person. We could see the deed or the rental agreement. On and on it goes. All of this goes out the window with God. I know the premium the LDS faith places on certitude. Belief is not good enough; faith is not good enough. One is expected to say they "know" it's true. It's the standard in all testimony meetings: "I know this church is true." But of course none of the people who say that "know" it, anymore than I know a giant green unicorn rules the universe. We can't agree on definitions of God, you can't show me any proof of his existence, I can't witness it, etc. It's a silly analogy, Josh. It doesn't work. Twist it around all you like. Fact is, your faith is being very disrespectful to people. And of course, you will say we hate religion, we're being mean, it's another bash the LDS thread. And you'll get one or two people who agree with you. But the reality is, you drop these ridiculous one-liner posts on how it's "truth" and then that stirs the debate. The responses are justified because you refuse to acknowledge the obvious.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>><Why do churches teach of unbaptised babies not reaching heaven, and yet criminals who repent on their deathbed are likely to reach heaven?> I always found that unsettling, and I don't believe it.<<< I am glad to hear it, but it was this treatment that turned my mom away from religion. When she was 16 she married her childhood sweetheart because he was being shipped out to Vietnam. Before he shipped out, she fell pregnant with my brother John (yes, a religious name from a religious woman). When John was born, he was not well. Mom considered baptising him, but wanted to wait until her husband came home on leave so they could all be together (makes sense right?). Well, Mom did not know that John had little holes in his heart and sadly he died 3 months later. When mom called for the family priest for support, he did come. But all he did was chastise her and said that John would spend eternity in pergatory. And sadly, not long after that, Gary was also killed. The priest's response to this 16 year old girl was "it's all in god's plan". Needless to say, she turned away from the church, but never stopped me exploring. But it did get me thinking. What happens? If you die as a baby and heaven did exist and you got in, would you always be a baby? What if you were old or disabled, would you remain that way too? All seems unlikely to me. Makes it hard to swallow (though I will admit the idea of a heaven would be nice).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Oh, man, I could go on for ages with horrid stories in the family. Probably why I do what I do for a living.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Mom is currently questioning whether she should had ever had children as now she has Lupus, Emphazema, Cardio Myapathy and OCPD. I have non progressive cerebal palsy and have been battling high blood pressure for over 10 years, now I am pre diabetic. She had several miscarriages and still borns after me. Danny (age 19) is the surviving twin, he has 3 kidneys, scoliosis, CMT and they are checking to see if he has cardio myapathy too. It is very likely he will be in a wheelchair before the age of 30 and may use the use of his hands. Chris seems to be ok, other than having stunted growth, but we will see. Nate (13) has even worse case of CMT and younger. They are not sure if they can operate, and if they cannot, there are concerns he will be in a wheelchair in his 20's. Some horrid "christians" have often said we are being punished for our lack of faith. But I do not believe this. Why should some judgemental jerkwads who go to church and do nothing else that is good for humanity get a free ride. Whereas in our family, we try to live for others, and we are punished? Personally, I think it's just the luck of the draw and bad genes.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Some horrid "christians" have often said we are being punished for our lack of faith.*** Lovely people.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I don't know where to start. EVERY religion involves FAITH in something that cannot be proven. To look for logic is really not relevant. Faith transcends logic. For instance... If my wife (or friend) had a chance to go to bed with George Clooney, logic would tell me she would. Faith would tell me she would not. I've known Mormons and they are truly good people. It is really no fairer for a non-Mormon to judge the Mormon faith than it is for a non-Muslim to judge the Muslim faith. Yes, I realize that the Mormon faith has some beliefs that many here find offensive. Well knock, knock puddin' head... what religion doesn't? The Catholic Church probably has more offensive believes than most, and they have the money and power to back it up. Why pick on a religion that may have great influence in Utah but not that much influence very far away from Utah? In my mind, the Catholic Church has far more views that are out of touch. No birth control No women in the priesthood No remarriage after divorce Celibacy for priests (as if...) Multi-layered hierarchy that is totally out of touch with the average parishioner. I admire Josh. Not for what he believes, but for holding true to his beliefs in spite of overwhelming opposition.
