Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>EVERY religion involves FAITH in something that cannot be proven. To look for logic is really not relevant. Faith transcends logic. <<< And this is probably why the campaign exists.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>EVERY religion involves FAITH in something that cannot be proven. To look for logic is really not relevant. Faith transcends logic.<< Did faith transcend logic for Mohammed Atta too? Look, I could care less if someone has faith. That's fine. No one is telling anyone to "just be logical." We're asking them not to shove their religion down our throats. We've been told by many people on this thread that the atheist billboards are offensive, tactless, and ineffective. But when someone suggests the same thing about a Mormon practice, we're told, "Hey, it's just faith. And ya know what? I admire a guy for sticking to his faith principles." I see no such admiration or understanding for atheists. Which has been my point all along: religion is privileged to such a degree that the double-standard is appalling. It's not fair for a non-Mormon to judge a Mormon? What about a believer judging a non-believer? That happens routinely, even though they've never been there themselves. >>Why pick on a religion that may have great influence in Utah but not that much influence very far away from Utah?<< By all accounts, without Mormon support, Prop 8 would have gone a different direction. They make up about 2% of California. Mormons also made a huge impact on the ERA in the 70s. They are not lacking in influence outside of Utah.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I see no such admiration or understanding for atheists.*** That's because there is something horribly wrong with being an atheist. All religions agree on that (even though they think all the others are "wrong", they admire the fact that they believe in *something*, to the point where many of them really do believe that Atta was probably a "better" person than any random atheist).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Mormons also made a huge impact on the ERA in the 70s.*** Out of curiosity, what is the Mormon argument against equal rights?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Out of curiosity, what is the Mormon argument against equal rights?<< In many ways it mirrors the current anti-gay arguments. It attacks the "traditional family." At the time of ERA, there was hysteria that it would lead to sexual deviance and permissiveness, the degradation of society, etc. It's the same old story: fear of change and progress.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<***I see no such admiration or understanding for atheists.***>> I guess I just don't see what you are seeing. My daughter's husband is an atheist. I don't really care much one way or the other. I've seen major protests about Catholic doctrine, Baptist doctrine, Muslim doctrine, etc. I don't think I've ever heard of any type of organized protest against atheists. No offense, but most people don't really give a rip about them one way or the other. I think atheists perhaps have a massive inferiority complex because or their minority status in this country, but I really don’t see any organized opposition to them. Various religious groups do not like atheists trying to totally drive their beliefs out of public life. But I really don't see the opposite happening. I think most people’s opinion toward atheists is pretty much "you don't mess with me; I won't mess with you." Atheists just are not a threat to those with religious beliefs. There really aren't enough of you in America to make much difference. All we ask is that you leave us alone in our beliefs, and we will leave you alone in yours.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***All we ask is that you leave us alone in our beliefs, and we will leave you alone in yours.*** As if... RT, you really don't see that Christian beliefs permeate the law of the land in America? You don't understand how Christian lobbyists (like the Catholic Bishops, for example) influence what laws are made or enforced? You can't really see how this is permeating the very fabric of the U.S. judicial system in many ways? Not to mention the whole "faith based initiatives" program which is so very blatant... None of that strikes you as "fighting against non-religious people"?
Originally Posted By Kilroy The fish with legs symbol on cars, OK let's be honest shall we. Is that a way of saying "I am an evolutionist" or "I ridicule your christianity" or both? As a "non believer" or science lover I can't help but think the symbol is used as mockery far more than not. I will not put one on my car for the same reason I won't yell at Dodgers hitters to "STRIKE OUT", "TAKE A SEAT" or "GO BACK TO LA YOU BUMBS!" Instead I will yell encouragements to my Giants to play their best game.
Originally Posted By Mr X ****Various religious groups do not like atheists trying to totally drive their beliefs out of public life.**** This is the key, right here. Of COURSE they don't like it, it they had their way America would be a theocracy, wouldn't it? And in a place supposedly dedicated to "separation of church and state", what place does religious beliefs have in "public life" anyway? BUT, here's the kicker. It's not a matter of religious belief...if it were Muslim or Buddhist it would BE driven out post haste. What we HAVE is a Christian coalition dictating the public (AND private) lives of everyone else. I'm not okay with that. Are you?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***OK let's be honest shall we. Is that a way of saying "I am an evolutionist" or "I ridicule your christianity" or both?*** Perhaps both, although I take exception to the "evolutionist" title since it's NOT a religion. It's a branch of science. If I "believe" in the concept of gravity based on scientific research, am I a "gravityist""?
Originally Posted By Kilroy "evolutionist" just means a person who believes that animals change over time by adapting to their environments as opposed to the hand of some god creating new species out of thin air. ***I take exception to the "evolutionist" title since it's NOT a religion. *** I am confused because I never said it was a religion, so why the correction? ***If I "believe" in the concept of gravity based on scientific research, am I a "gravityist""?*** I don't see why not, sounds logical enough to me.
Originally Posted By Mr X It's not a "belief system", it's a matter of scientific, well proven set of facts. What are you missing here? Or are you arguing "just because"?
Originally Posted By Kilroy ***It's not a "belief system", it's a matter of scientific, well proven set of facts. Or are you arguing "just because"?*** Is there something wrong with your reading? Again, where did I say evolution is a belief system or a religion? I never did. That is two times now that you corrected me on something I did not say nor hold and I'm starting to think that maybe you are the one who is arguing "just because". Keep coming at me like this and I might start giving money to the Letter Day Sts., impeach Obama movement and anti universal healthcare forces. : P I need to sleep. We will pick this up in the late morning
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "All we ask is that you leave us alone in our beliefs, and we will leave you alone in yours." It's this statement and the one where you say Mormons don't have much influence that don't support the rest of what you're saying. I happen to believe in God, but as I get older, organized religion as a whole just turns me off to no end. Please don't kid yourself, they all try to influence, and right now Mormons are the flavor of the month, or year, or decade, or what have you. Mormons, much like radical Muslims, refuse to let you alone, even in death. Catholics may not seem quite as overt about their hypocrisy to many anymore because they've been around so long. Same goes for the fundamental Baptists or whatever they are like Pat Robertson. So I can see a little bit where atheists are coming from and from where you are, but again, don't kid yourself, some of them just can't abide live and let live.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I guess I just don't see what you are seeing. My daughter's husband is an atheist. I don't really care much one way or the other. I've seen major protests about Catholic doctrine, Baptist doctrine, Muslim doctrine, etc. I don't think I've ever heard of any type of organized protest against atheists. No offense, but most people don't really give a rip about them one way or the other. << I appreciate that you feel that way, but by and large, you're wrong. People care, and people are shockingly offensive about it. Or at best, enough people care - even if they're a vocal minority - that it makes being an Atheist difficult to navigate. And it's like any minority group; you can't understand unless you're a part of it. It's certainly nowhere near being like a Latino American, or African American. But since I've been open about my non-belief, I am routinely shocked at the treatment I receive from family and co-workers who know. >>Atheists just are not a threat to those with religious beliefs. There really aren't enough of you in America to make much difference.<< Again, you're just wrong about this. You said that Mormons weren't able to be influential. I've shown you to be wrong. There are roughly the same number of Mormons, Muslims, and Jews in the United States. There nearly 5 times as many Atheists in the United States as Mormons or Jews. Despite these numbers, polls show, for example, that most Americans would vote for a Mormon for President, Jew, woman, etc. The number plummets when you ask them about Atheist. And there is clearly no "live and let live" attitude. Again, I appreciate that you personally may feel this way, but you're projecting your own approach onto the whole, and it's giving you a false sense of how people approach Atheism and faith. I think Prop 8, the paranoia over the war on Christmas, etc., proves that. Personally, I have no problem with Christmas. I was raised in a religious household and I still have a Christmas tree etc. But I can understand that Jewish, or Muslim, or even an Atheist family would not celebrate it. Therefore, it just seems polite to me to say "Happy holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas." It's just the polite recognition that not everyone is like me or shares my beliefs. But to a lot of Christians in this country, it's an insult to say "Happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." And they choose to be defiantly outraged and simply understand that this is not a complex issue, or a persecution of their faith. They choose to satisfy their own outrage rather than treat those different from them with respect.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***There are roughly the same number of Mormons, Muslims, and Jews in the United States. There nearly 5 times as many Atheists in the United States as Mormons or Jews.*** <--lightbulb illuminates over head Holy CRAP, ECDC, you just said a mouthful!! Can you imagine what kind of a powerful voting bloc that could be!? Image, a PAC dedicated to equal rights, targeted towards agnostics and atheists, "agnostics for fairness" or something. After all, groups like Catholicism and Mormonism have no problem battling against people they don't approve of through political and legal means. What's good for the goose and all that. Imagine if funds dedicated to fairness and equality were to pour into a place like Utah the way Utah money pours out into coffers like Prop 8! Wanna team up? How does one begin to found a political action effort!? (I'm serious)
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Here's a look at religion in America. <a href="http://religions.pewforum.org/reports" target="_blank">http://religions.pewforum.org/reports</a># I found this line especially interesting... >>A major survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life finds that most Americans have a non-dogmatic approach to faith. A strong majority of those who are affiliated with a religion, including majorities of nearly every religious tradition, do not believe their religion is the only way to salvation. And almost the same number believes that there is more than one true way to interpret the teachings of their religion. This openness to a range of religious viewpoints is in line with the great diversity of religious affiliation, belief and practice that exists in the United States, as documented in a survey of more than 35,000 Americans that comprehensively examines the country’s religious landscape.<< Now, that seems to be more about respecting differing faiths, and doesn't address the feelings of religious people about those who do not believe in God. It would be interesting to see if Josh or ecdc is right about that aspect. Are religious people more or less okay with a live and let live, make your own choices approach? Or are there more people who feel the need to guide others away from agnosticism and into faith? I would bet it varies widely from religion to religion and region to region.
